Author Topic: Yang dimaksud "Perpecahan Jemaat" sampai dimana sih ?  (Read 63764 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Phooey

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5491
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Χριστός
Re: Yang dimaksud "Perpecahan Jemaat" sampai dimana sih ?
« Reply #420 on: February 06, 2013, 04:09:38 PM »
Quote
Membaca surat 1 Korintus 10-17

Perpecahan dalam jemaat
1:10 Tetapi aku menasihatkan kamu, saudara-saudara, t  demi nama Tuhan kita Yesus Kristus, supaya kamu seia sekata dan jangan ada perpecahan di antara kamu, u  tetapi sebaliknya supaya kamu erat bersatu v  dan sehati sepikir. 1:11 Sebab, saudara-saudaraku, aku telah diberitahukan oleh orang-orang dari keluarga w  Kloe tentang kamu, bahwa ada perselisihan di antara kamu. 1:12 Yang aku maksudkan ialah, bahwa kamu masing-masing berkata: Aku dari golongan Paulus. x  Atau aku dari golongan Apolos. y  Atau aku dari golongan Kefas 4 . z  Atau aku dari golongan Kristus 5 . 1:13 Adakah Kristus terbagi-bagi? Adakah Paulus disalibkan karena kamu? Atau adakah kamu dibaptis dalam nama Paulus? a  1:14 Aku mengucap syukur bahwa tidak ada seorangpun juga di antara kamu yang aku baptis selain Krispus b  dan Gayus, c  1:15 sehingga tidak ada orang yang dapat mengatakan, bahwa kamu dibaptis dalam namaku. 1:16 Juga keluarga d  Stefanus e  aku yang membaptisnya. Kecuali mereka aku tidak tahu, entahkah ada lagi orang yang aku baptis. 1:17 Sebab Kristus mengutus aku bukan untuk membaptis 6 , f  tetapi untuk memberitakan Injil; dan itupun bukan dengan hikmat g  perkataan, supaya salib Kristus jangan menjadi sia-sia.


Salam Damai


Apakah teman2 sudah sepakat bahwa banyaknya denominasi saat ini termasuk perpecahan jemaat seperti yang disampaikan Rasul Paulus ?



GBU
 :)
Καὶ μὴ κρίνετε, καὶ οὐ μὴ κριθῆτε· καὶ μὴ καταδικάζετε, καὶ οὐ μὴ καταδικασθῆτε. ἀπολύετε, καὶ ἀπολυθήσεσθε· (Luk 6:37 BGT)

Offline Husada

  • FIK council
  • Super Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3585
  • Reputation Power:
  • Gerejaku Didirikan oleh Yesus Kristus
Re: Yang dimaksud "Perpecahan Jemaat" sampai dimana sih ?
« Reply #421 on: February 06, 2013, 05:29:55 PM »
Damai sejahtera menyertaimu Phooey.

Menurut pemahaman saya, 1 Kor 1:10-17 justru sangat menunjukkan keinginan Paulus agar semua anggota jemaat bersatu padu, sehati sepikir. Jadi, menurut pendapat saya, terpecahnya denominasi jemaat dewasa ini, karena tidak membaca atau membaca tetapi tidak mencermatinya.

Damai, damai, damai.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 05:32:41 PM by Husada »
PRO ECCLESIA ET PATRIA, PRO PATRIA ET ECCLESIA

Offline lukas_i3

  • FIK - Junior
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Reputation Power:
  • Justus ex fide sue vivet (Rom 1:17)
  • Denominasi: Injili
Re: Yang dimaksud "Perpecahan Jemaat" sampai dimana sih ?
« Reply #422 on: February 06, 2013, 08:48:46 PM »
Damai sejahtera menyertaimu Phooey.

Menurut pemahaman saya, 1 Kor 1:10-17 justru sangat menunjukkan keinginan Paulus agar semua anggota jemaat bersatu padu, sehati sepikir. Jadi, menurut pendapat saya, terpecahnya denominasi jemaat dewasa ini, karena tidak membaca atau membaca tetapi tidak mencermatinya.

Damai, damai, damai.

1 Korintus 10:17  Karena roti adalah satu, maka kita, sekalipun banyak, adalah satu tubuh, karena kita semua mendapat bagian dalam roti yang satu itu.
1 Korintus 12:12  Karena sama seperti tubuh itu satu dan anggota-anggotanya banyak, dan segala anggota itu, sekalipun banyak, merupakan satu tubuh, demikian pula Kristus.

perlu dipahami dulu.. perpecahan yang dimaksud Paulus itu secara rohani atau organisatoris? kalo organisatoris tentunya ada peranan manusia...:)
Soli sapienti Deo per Iesum Christum gloria in secula. Amen
(Rom 16:27)

 שְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהוָ֥ה׀ אֶחָֽד׃
 (Deu 6:4)

Offline Gavin Tuturuga

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 1276
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: -
Re: Yang dimaksud "Perpecahan Jemaat" sampai dimana sih ?
« Reply #423 on: February 07, 2013, 05:48:31 AM »

Silahkan diperhatikan siapa yang berkata tidak sopan disini,makanya anda sebagai moderator harus fair didalam menilai,jangan hanya menguntungkan golongan sendiri saja.

Tindakan anda juga diperhatikan banyak orang disini.

Shalom

Makanya denger kata momod, soli yg sola..

Kamu yg ngga nyambung,.. tapi ketika dibilangi, malah nuduh orang  macam-macam..

saya sih cuma kesian aja. :giggle: :lol:
Back to TOPIC!

Offline solideogloria

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3803
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Protestant
Re: Yang dimaksud "Perpecahan Jemaat" sampai dimana sih ?
« Reply #424 on: February 07, 2013, 07:27:55 AM »
Makanya denger kata momod, soli yg sola..

Kamu yg ngga nyambung,.. tapi ketika dibilangi, malah nuduh orang  macam-macam..

saya sih cuma kesian aja. :giggle: :lol:

Kamu yang bidat semi pelagian dan non trinitarian kerjamu hanya adu domba belaka diforum ini saya lihat.

Seharusnya habitatmu bukan di lapak ini sesuai rule yg berlaku.

BACK TO BIBLE

Offline solideogloria

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3803
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Protestant
Re: Yang dimaksud "Perpecahan Jemaat" sampai dimana sih ?
« Reply #425 on: February 07, 2013, 07:38:54 AM »
Saya malas berdiskusi yang tidak pada tempatnya jadi saya pilih yang ini saja saya komentari

Saya berdiskusi sesuai topik mengenai perpecahan jemaat gereja.

Sekalian saya juga jelaskan sekalian menelanjangi kebohongan si tuturuga tukang adu domba itu mengenai dusta nya atas perpecahan gereja Protestan.


Quote
I was at the library one day researching something, and I saw the much talked about Protestant reference, the World Christian Encyclopedia by David B. Barrett, George T. Kurian, and Todd M. Johnson (2001 edition). I thought I'd see for myself what it says. This is what I found....

David Barrett, et al, does indeed refer to "over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries..." (Table 1-5, vol 1, page 16). This refers to his unique definition of a "Christian denomination" but does not include small ones (congregations of a couple hundred or less), which would dramatically increase this number beyond all imagination. Barrett also states there are 242 total Roman Catholic denominations (year 2000 numbers). So I looked into what he believed these denominations were.

Barrett breaks down his encyclopedic reference by country. So I looked up how many Roman Catholic denominations are within the U.S. according to Barrett. Much to my surprise, Barrett shows ONLY ONE Roman Catholic denomination for the United States.

So I wondered where the heck are these 242 denominations? I looked in Barrett's reference for Britain, and again he listed ONLY ONE Roman Catholic denomination. I thought surely that of the 238 countries within his encyclopedic reference there must be a country that had more than ONE Roman Catholic denomination. There wasn't. I could not find one country listed by Barrett that had more than ONE Roman Catholic denomination.
So, what does Barrett mean when he states there are 242 Roman Catholic denominations? It seems Barrett is counting each country as it's own denomination. So, for Barrett, the Roman Catholic Church of the USA is a different denomination than the Roman Catholic Church of Canada. I don't know how he got 242 denominations from 238 countries listed, however. Some numbers from Barrett's...

Denominations / Paradenominations:

1970: 26,350
1995: 33,820

Under U.S. Country Table 2, of the 6,222 US denominations, there's only ONE Roman Catholic denomination listed, and there's 60 Orthodox denominations. Barrett labels the rest of the denominations: Protestant, Anglican, Independent, and Marginal. The more commonly accepted classification of Christianity used even by Protestant scholars, such as Leslie Dunstan in his book Protestantism, Christianity consists of: (1) Catholic, (2) Orthodox, and (3) Protestant. So, using this more commonly understood classification....

Number of U.S. Denominations

Catholic           1

Orthodox       60
Protestant  6,161

Remember, the above numbers are derived using Protestant sources only. Barrett differs from other Protestants such as Dunstan as to what constitutes a Protestant denomination. What Dunstan would call Protestant, Barrett describes as:

Barrett's classification:

Protestant         660
Anglican               1
Independent  5,100
Marginal           400

That's just for the U.S. Yet, there's but ONE Catholic denomination in the U.S., either by Dunstan or Barrett's standard

242 itu cara ngitungnya gimana  :doh:

sudah dibantah dengan artikel di atas masih dari sumber yang sama coba baca lagi yang saya bold di atas


True Sola Scriptura leads to perfect unity! Oral traditions and creeds cause division!

A. Analysis of Table 1-5 to calculate the number of Roman Catholic and Orthodox denominations:

1.   Barrett lists in table 1-5, 25 Orthodox traditions inside the Orthodox church and 22 Roman Catholic traditions inside the Roman Catholic church. Add the 16 Orthodox traditions and 8 Roman Catholic traditions in the "Independent" category, and you of have a grand total of 41 different Orthodox denominations and 30 Roman Catholic denominations.

2.   As you can see, religious division within Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches is about equal with others.

3.   Whereas Traditionalists will claim they are "one" and Protestants are divided into many denominations, we can now see where they got that claim, and why it is so wrong!

4.   As you will see, the 30,000 to 1 ratio spouted by traditionalists is way off. You will see, there are about as many different types of Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches as there are Protestant! They are equally divided!

5.   We also note that the majority of the 209 "Independent" traditions are Pentecostal/Charismatic type churches who do not use sola Scriptura to determine doctrine. There are an additional 24 traditions of Roman Catholic and Orthodox within the "independent" category. This means that of the 209 Independent sects listed, 24 are from the traditions of Roman Catholic and Orthodox!

6.   Final numbers: Barrett's data leads us to conclude that there are 30 Roman Catholic denominations and 41 different Orthodox denominations. This means that the worship, doctrine and liturgy has 30 Roman Catholic variations and 41 Orthodox variations, not to mention the fact that Catholic and Orthodox are divided against themselves. Obviously, oral tradition is not a reliable method of determining truth. Sola Scriptura is the only method that can work.

Bersambung...


BACK TO BIBLE

Offline solideogloria

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3803
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Protestant
Re: Yang dimaksud "Perpecahan Jemaat" sampai dimana sih ?
« Reply #426 on: February 07, 2013, 07:39:09 AM »
Bersambung...


B. Assessments and comments:

1.   Roman Catholic's and Orthodox should cast no stones at the religious division of Protestants, since there are between 30-410 Roman Catholic denominations and between 41-1302 Orthodox denominations. (Depending how your count them: see conclusions.)

2.   "Oral tradition leads to doctrinal anarchy, which is further reason why you need to use sola Scriptura. Look at all of these Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox denominations, no less than 71 of them the last time I checked. How do Catholics and Orthodox know you're in the correct church?" Which of the 71 "oral traditions" is the true one?

3.   There are over 142 different Roman Catholic and Orthodox denominations. This fact will come as a shock to most Catholics and Orthodox believers. We suggest you write your leaders and tell them to stop using the "division" argument against sola Scriptura because it comes back and bites you!

4.   This is a case of blind hypocrisy because not only are the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches bitterly divided against themselves, there are also more than 30 different Catholic denominations and 41Orthodox denominations. Both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches made the identical claim that they have the true apostolic church tradition yet they differ so much in doctrine and liturgy, that they are not even "in fellowship" with each other. Obviously then, using tradition creates just as many different doctrines as Protestant churches.

5.   Roman Catholic and Orthodox tradition defenders are merely highlighting the failure of creedalism, not true sola Scriptura. The reasons these "Sola Scriptura churches" differ in doctrine, is because they truly are not using the Bible alone, but use creeds like traditionalists.

6.   Many churches that claim to use the Bible alone, in fact do not. So the Roman Catholic and Orthodox observation that "sola Scriptura churches" differ in doctrine is invalid because they are not really "sola Scriptura" churches since they use creeds, councils and statements of faith in addition to the Bible to determine doctrine. We call them pseudo-Sola Scriptura churches.

7.   "Pseudo-Sola Scriptura" churches that claim such "personal illumination" differ as greatly in their doctrine, as the "Anti-Sola Scriptura" do in regards to their tradition. So Roman Catholic and Orthodox defenders need find another line of reasoning that makes no reference to "guidance from the Holy Spirit to understand the Bible alone". We reject this as a false doctrine, as much as papal infallibility.

8.   So anti-sola Scriptura churches like Roman Catholic and Orthodox differ with each other for exactly the same reason pseudo-Sola Scriptura churches: They both use human creeds as standards of doctrine.

9.   Further, these Protestants are protesting the Catholic and Orthodox system. Obviously God did not see fit to give Rome or Constantinople any supremacy, otherwise they would not be protested so much. The fact that there is protest on this kind of universal protest on such a large scale proves something is very wrong. This failure is highlighted by the fact that the Orthodox church rejected the Roman church's claim for world domination. The East (Orthodox) basically told the bishop of Rome, "It has never been this way, why should we start now!"

10.   Amazing Catholics claim the are the true church and Orthodox is the denomination, and the Orthodox say that they are the true church and the Roman Catholic is the denomination, yet both claim apostolic succession and oral tradition. Both are wrong, only through scripture can you have unity!

11.   The following table is taken from David B. Barrett's World Christian Encyclopedia: A Comparative Survey of Churches and Religions in the Modern World, 2001, p 14-15.
Apples to Apples comparisons when quoting Barrett's 30,000 denominations figure:

1.   If Roman Catholic and Orthodox tradition defenders say there are 30,000 Protestant denominations, (table 1-3) this is factually in error, since Barrett says there are 8848 Protestant denominations.

2.   Apples to Apples A: If Roman Catholic and Orthodox tradition defenders say there are 30,000 Protestant denominations (column 11, table 1-3), then the apples to apples number that corresponds to them in table 1-3 is a total of 1712 Roman Catholic and Orthodox denominations. (410 Roman Catholic + 1302 Orthodox = 1712) Remember, you must add in the total number of 710 independent splits from the Roman Catholic (172) and Orthodox (538) churches traditions. Remember, however, that Barrett counts a single unified sect in three different countries as a count of 3 denominations in column 11, so a single denomination in 238 countries, would be counted by Barrett as having 238 denominations in column 11. Column 11, therefore is not helpful by itself in determining actual denominations in the classical sense.

3.   Apples to Apples B: To calculate the actual number of Roman Catholic and Orthodox denominations, we need to use column 2, table 1-5 from Barrett's work. Barrett notes that although under one head, even the Roman Catholic are divided into 22 different denominations with varying liturgy and the Orthodox church under Constantinople/ Ecumenical Patriarch has 25 variations. We add to this the independent splits, not in communion with the mother churches (Rome and Constantinople) There are 66 independent denominations that are "Roman Catholic like" and 74 independent denominations that are "Orthodox like".

4.   Apples to Apples C: If Roman Catholics object to our counting those under Rome as 22 denominations and Orthodox object to our counting those under Constantinople as having 25 variations, then we have created a third comparison that will quell the whining. In Comparison #3, we counted all the divisions under Rome and Constantinople as one each. Here we merely added the schisms in column 2 of table 1-5 in the "independent" category.

http://www.bible.ca/sola-scriptura-anti-refuted-division.htm

Silahkan anda renungkan sendiri.


Shalom





BACK TO BIBLE

Offline solideogloria

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3803
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Protestant
Re: Yang dimaksud "Perpecahan Jemaat" sampai dimana sih ?
« Reply #427 on: February 07, 2013, 07:47:21 AM »
Geli juga bacanya...

Nanti akan kelihatan yang mana lebih geli.


Quote
kamu baca nih

Baca juga ayat dibawah ini :

II Timotius 3:16 Segala tulisan yang diilhamkan Allah memang bermanfaat untuk mengajar, untuk menyatakan kesalahan, untuk memperbaiki kelakuan dan untuk mendidik orang dalam kebenaran.

Jadi Roh Kudus yang selalu bekerja berdasarkan Firman Tuhan sudah menggerakkan Martin Luther untuk mencetuskan gerakan Reformasi agar gereja kembali kepada habitatnya yaitu kebenaran Alkitab.

Jadi saya menyorot “gerakan mulia” yang dilakukan oleh Martin Luther sudah pasti adalah pimpinan Roh Kudus untuk membawa kembali gereja-Nya agar taat sepenuhnya kepada ajaran Alkitab sebagai fondasi gereja.

Secara umum teologi reformasi berpegang pada otoritas Alkitab, kedaulatan Allah, keselamatan oleh anugrah melalui Kristus, dan perlunya penginjilan


Quote
Jadi ini yang anda bilang mendapatkan pencerahan Roh Kudus  :giggle: :doh:

Adapun jika anda menganggap ada kelemahan pribadi Martin Luther yang hanya manusia biasa adalah lumrah sebagaimana juga Petrus dan para Paus anda.

Apakah praktek para Paus sepanjang sejarah seperti :

1.   Perebutan kekuasaan sehingga terjadi Paus rangkap,
2.   Genosida orang orang Kataris,
3.   Pembantaian pada Hari Santo Bartolomeus
4.   Inkwisisi,
5.   Menjual Surat Indulgensi,

….dan banyak lagi kalau harus saya kutip semua didalam Buku Sejarah Gelap Para Paus yang diterbitkan P.T.Gramedia yang notabene milik Katolik sendiri.

Pertanyaan yang sama

Apakah itu juga pimpinan Roh Kudus ???

Mana yang lebih menggelikan,apakah Martin Luther atau para Paus yang katanya infallible itu ???


Shalom
BACK TO BIBLE

Offline Leonardo

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1772
  • Reputation Power:
  • katolik
Re: Yang dimaksud "Perpecahan Jemaat" sampai dimana sih ?
« Reply #428 on: February 07, 2013, 08:08:20 AM »
Saya berdiskusi sesuai topik mengenai perpecahan jemaat gereja.

Sekalian saya juga jelaskan sekalian menelanjangi kebohongan si tuturuga tukang adu domba itu mengenai dusta nya atas perpecahan gereja Protestan.

sumber Protestan yang kamu bawa menjelaskan protestan terbagi2 dalam denominasi ini kamu yakini nggak...

sekarang kan mengenai klaim barret yang 242 denom katolik itu yang mau kamu angkat demi menutupi perpecahan denom protestan.  :D

silahkan buktikan denom apa saja itu

Quote

True Sola Scriptura leads to perfect unity! Oral traditions and creeds cause division!

A. Analysis of Table 1-5 to calculate the number of Roman Catholic and Orthodox denominations:

1.   Barrett lists in table 1-5, 25 Orthodox traditions inside the Orthodox church and 22 Roman Catholic traditions inside the Roman Catholic church. Add the 16 Orthodox traditions and 8 Roman Catholic traditions in the "Independent" category, and you of have a grand total of 41 different Orthodox denominations and 30 Roman Catholic denominations.
22 roman catholic traditions ini apa...kamu ungkapkan dong di sini...

Quote

2.   As you can see, religious division within Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches is about equal with others.

3.   Whereas Traditionalists will claim they are "one" and Protestants are divided into many denominations, we can now see where they got that claim, and why it is so wrong!

4.   As you will see, the 30,000 to 1 ratio spouted by traditionalists is way off. You will see, there are about as many different types of Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches as there are Protestant! They are equally divided!
Table awal nya katolik menurut si barnett yang protestan ada 242 denom yang belum kamu buktikan denom katoliknya apa saja...jangan2 ritus dinamakan denom lagi  :lol:

Quote
5.   We also note that the majority of the 209 "Independent" traditions are Pentecostal/Charismatic type churches who do not use sola Scriptura to determine doctrine. There are an additional 24 traditions of Roman Catholic and Orthodox within the "independent" category. This means that of the 209 Independent sects listed, 24 are from the traditions of Roman Catholic and Orthodox!

Sekarang pantekosta termasuk protestan nggak?
Ini doktrin baru tahun 1900 an yah  :lol: :doh:
sekarang jawab nih protestan yang sola scriptura terbagi2 antar denom nggak berapa banyak...

sumber protestan mengatakan

Under U.S. Country Table 2, of the 6,222 US denominations, there's only ONE Roman Catholic denomination listed, and there's 60 Orthodox denominations. Barrett labels the rest of the denominations: Protestant, Anglican, Independent, and Marginal. The more commonly accepted classification of Christianity used even by Protestant scholars, such as Leslie Dunstan in his book Protestantism, Christianity consists of: (1) Catholic, (2) Orthodox, and (3) Protestant. So, using this more commonly understood classification....

Number of U.S. Denominations

Catholic           1
Orthodox       60
Protestant  6,161

6,161 ini pantekosta semua yah yang anti sola scriptura ... :giggle: :lol:

Quote
6.   Final numbers: Barrett's data leads us to conclude that there are 30 Roman Catholic denominations and 41 different Orthodox denominations. This means that the worship, doctrine and liturgy has 30 Roman Catholic variations and 41 Orthodox variations, not to mention the fact that Catholic and Orthodox are divided against themselves. Obviously, oral tradition is not a reliable method of determining truth. Sola Scriptura is the only method that can work.

Bersambung...
ritus dan liturgi memang ada bedanya tapi doktrin iman jelas tidak...

silahkan buktikan perbedaan doktrin iman dalam katolik  :doh:
In Omnibus Caritas

Offline Leonardo

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1772
  • Reputation Power:
  • katolik
Re: Yang dimaksud "Perpecahan Jemaat" sampai dimana sih ?
« Reply #429 on: February 07, 2013, 08:17:40 AM »

B. Assessments and comments:

1.   Roman Catholic's and Orthodox should cast no stones at the religious division of Protestants, since there are between 30-410 Roman Catholic denominations and between 41-1302 Orthodox denominations. (Depending how your count them: see conclusions.)

2.   "Oral tradition leads to doctrinal anarchy, which is further reason why you need to use sola Scriptura. Look at all of these Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox denominations, no less than 71 of them the last time I checked. How do Catholics and Orthodox know you're in the correct church?" Which of the 71 "oral traditions" is the true one?

3.   There are over 142 different Roman Catholic and Orthodox denominations. This fact will come as a shock to most Catholics and Orthodox believers. We suggest you write your leaders and tell them to stop using the "division" argument against sola Scriptura because it comes back and bites you!

4.   This is a case of blind hypocrisy because not only are the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches bitterly divided against themselves, there are also more than 30 different Catholic denominations and 41Orthodox denominations. Both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches made the identical claim that they have the true apostolic church tradition yet they differ so much in doctrine and liturgy, that they are not even "in fellowship" with each other. Obviously then, using tradition creates just as many different doctrines as Protestant churches.
Klaim protestan terhadap GK ini perlu dibuktikan denom katolik mana saja yang diklaim di atas...
jangan bisanya cuman copy paste bro   :D

BUKTIKAN jika ada denom2 katolik yang punya doktrin iman berbeda2...seperti yang dianut Protestan ...bisa nggak   :giggle:

Quote
5.   Roman Catholic and Orthodox tradition defenders are merely highlighting the failure of creedalism, not true sola Scriptura. The reasons these "Sola Scriptura churches" differ in doctrine, is because they truly are not using the Bible alone, but use creeds like traditionalists.

iya ini kalian berantem sendiri wkkk...sesama protestan menganggap yang satu lebih sola scriptura ...

Jadi demi melawan katolik...saudara sesama protestan kalian anggap not sola scriptura  :giggle: :lol:

Jadi pantekosta bukan protestan yah dan pantekosta bukan sola scriptura...kamu buat thread baru aja deh...kayaknya menarik nih  :whistle:

Quote

6.   Many churches that claim to use the Bible alone, in fact do not. So the Roman Catholic and Orthodox observation that "sola Scriptura churches" differ in doctrine is invalid because they are not really "sola Scriptura" churches since they use creeds, councils and statements of faith in addition to the Bible to determine doctrine. We call them pseudo-Sola Scriptura churches.

7.   "Pseudo-Sola Scriptura" churches that claim such "personal illumination" differ as greatly in their doctrine, as the "Anti-Sola Scriptura" do in regards to their tradition. So Roman Catholic and Orthodox defenders need find another line of reasoning that makes no reference to "guidance from the Holy Spirit to understand the Bible alone". We reject this as a false doctrine, as much as papal infallibility.

8.   So anti-sola Scriptura churches like Roman Catholic and Orthodox differ with each other for exactly the same reason pseudo-Sola Scriptura churches: They both use human creeds as standards of doctrine.

9.   Further, these Protestants are protesting the Catholic and Orthodox system. Obviously God did not see fit to give Rome or Constantinople any supremacy, otherwise they would not be protested so much. The fact that there is protest on this kind of universal protest on such a large scale proves something is very wrong. This failure is highlighted by the fact that the Orthodox church rejected the Roman church's claim for world domination. The East (Orthodox) basically told the bishop of Rome, "It has never been this way, why should we start now!"

10.   Amazing Catholics claim the are the true church and Orthodox is the denomination, and the Orthodox say that they are the true church and the Roman Catholic is the denomination, yet both claim apostolic succession and oral tradition. Both are wrong, only through scripture can you have unity!

11.   The following table is taken from David B. Barrett's World Christian Encyclopedia: A Comparative Survey of Churches and Religions in the Modern World, 2001, p 14-15.
Apples to Apples comparisons when quoting Barrett's 30,000 denominations figure:

1.   If Roman Catholic and Orthodox tradition defenders say there are 30,000 Protestant denominations, (table 1-3) this is factually in error, since Barrett says there are 8848 Protestant denominations.

oh jadi yang benar Protestan itu 8848...denom  :D

Ini yang udah sola scriptura nggak...katanya tadi banyak denom karena tradisi sekarang kok sola scriptura ada 8848 denom ini mau tambah lagi nggak  :D

Quote
2.   Apples to Apples A: If Roman Catholic and Orthodox tradition defenders say there are 30,000 Protestant denominations (column 11, table 1-3), then the apples to apples number that corresponds to them in table 1-3 is a total of 1712 Roman Catholic and Orthodox denominations. (410 Roman Catholic + 1302 Orthodox = 1712) Remember, you must add in the total number of 710 independent splits from the Roman Catholic (172) and Orthodox (538) churches traditions. Remember, however, that Barrett counts a single unified sect in three different countries as a count of 3 denominations in column 11, so a single denomination in 238 countries, would be counted by Barrett as having 238 denominations in column 11. Column 11, therefore is not helpful by itself in determining actual denominations in the classical sense.

3.   Apples to Apples B: To calculate the actual number of Roman Catholic and Orthodox denominations, we need to use column 2, table 1-5 from Barrett's work. Barrett notes that although under one head, even the Roman Catholic are divided into 22 different denominations with varying liturgy and the Orthodox church under Constantinople/ Ecumenical Patriarch has 25 variations. We add to this the independent splits, not in communion with the mother churches (Rome and Constantinople) There are 66 independent denominations that are "Roman Catholic like" and 74 independent denominations that are "Orthodox like".

4.   Apples to Apples C: If Roman Catholics object to our counting those under Rome as 22 denominations and Orthodox object to our counting those under Constantinople as having 25 variations, then we have created a third comparison that will quell the whining. In Comparison #3, we counted all the divisions under Rome and Constantinople as one each. Here we merely added the schisms in column 2 of table 1-5 in the "independent" category.

http://www.bible.ca/sola-scriptura-anti-refuted-division.htm

Silahkan anda renungkan sendiri.


Shalom
Kamu buktikan dulu 242 denom katolik itu berlainan doktrin imannya...
dan renungkan buah sola scriptura yaitu
Quote
Barrett says there are 8848 Protestant denominations.
In Omnibus Caritas

Offline solideogloria

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3803
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Protestant
Re: Yang dimaksud "Perpecahan Jemaat" sampai dimana sih ?
« Reply #430 on: February 07, 2013, 08:24:52 AM »
sumber Protestan yang kamu bawa menjelaskan protestan terbagi2 dalam denominasi ini kamu yakini nggak...

sekarang kan mengenai klaim barret yang 242 denom katolik itu yang mau kamu angkat demi menutupi perpecahan denom protestan.  :D

silahkan buktikan denom apa saja itu

Silahkan baca sendiri penjelasannya didalam website tsb.

Quote
Quote

True Sola Scriptura leads to perfect unity! Oral traditions and creeds cause division!

A. Analysis of Table 1-5 to calculate the number of Roman Catholic and Orthodox denominations:

1.   Barrett lists in table 1-5, 25 Orthodox traditions inside the Orthodox church and 22 Roman Catholic traditions inside the Roman Catholic church. Add the 16 Orthodox traditions and 8 Roman Catholic traditions in the "Independent" category, and you of have a grand total of 41 different Orthodox denominations and 30 Roman Catholic denominations.
22 roman catholic traditions ini apa...kamu ungkapkan dong di sini...


Itukan penjelasan dari mereka maka anda tanyakan dong mereka !


Quote
Quote

2.   As you can see, religious division within Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches is about equal with others.

3.   Whereas Traditionalists will claim they are "one" and Protestants are divided into many denominations, we can now see where they got that claim, and why it is so wrong!

4.   As you will see, the 30,000 to 1 ratio spouted by traditionalists is way off. You will see, there are about as many different types of Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches as there are Protestant! They are equally divided!
Table awal nya katolik menurut si barnett yang protestan ada 242 denom yang belum kamu buktikan denom katoliknya apa saja...jangan2 ritus dinamakan denom lagi 

Makanya anda harus jeli memahami apa itu yang mereka maksudkan dengan denominasi.

Quote
Quote
5.   We also note that the majority of the 209 "Independent" traditions are Pentecostal/Charismatic type churches who do not use sola Scriptura to determine doctrine. There are an additional 24 traditions of Roman Catholic and Orthodox within the "independent" category. This means that of the 209 Independent sects listed, 24 are from the traditions of Roman Catholic and Orthodox!

Sekarang pantekosta termasuk protestan nggak?
Ini doktrin baru tahun 1900 an yah 
sekarang jawab nih protestan yang sola scriptura terbagi2 antar denom nggak berapa banyak...

sumber protestan mengatakan

Under U.S. Country Table 2, of the 6,222 US denominations, there's only ONE Roman Catholic denomination listed, and there's 60 Orthodox denominations. Barrett labels the rest of the denominations: Protestant, Anglican, Independent, and Marginal. The more commonly accepted classification of Christianity used even by Protestant scholars, such as Leslie Dunstan in his book Protestantism, Christianity consists of: (1) Catholic, (2) Orthodox, and (3) Protestant. So, using this more commonly understood classification....

Number of U.S. Denominations

Catholic           1
Orthodox       60
Protestant  6,161

6,161 ini pantekosta semua yah yang anti sola scriptura ...


Semua Protestan yang lahir dari gerakan Reformasi umumnya adalah memegang teguh prinsip Sola Scriptura.


Quote
Quote
6.   Final numbers: Barrett's data leads us to conclude that there are 30 Roman Catholic denominations and 41 different Orthodox denominations. This means that the worship, doctrine and liturgy has 30 Roman Catholic variations and 41 Orthodox variations, not to mention the fact that Catholic and Orthodox are divided against themselves. Obviously, oral tradition is not a reliable method of determining truth. Sola Scriptura is the only method that can work.

Bersambung...
ritus dan liturgi memang ada bedanya tapi doktrin iman jelas tidak...

silahkan buktikan perbedaan doktrin iman dalam katolik


Saya hanya mengutip tulisan soal jumlah denominasi semata terlepas dari soal perbedaan doktrin.

Protestan walau banyak denominasi umumnya doktrin mereka sama yaitu memegang prinsip “Back to Bible.”

Perbedaan doktrin antara Alkitab dengan Katolik sudah panjang lebar saya utarakan disini tetapi tidak ada satupun bantahan.

Shalom

BACK TO BIBLE

Offline Leonardo

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1772
  • Reputation Power:
  • katolik
Re: Yang dimaksud "Perpecahan Jemaat" sampai dimana sih ?
« Reply #431 on: February 07, 2013, 08:30:55 AM »
Nanti akan kelihatan yang mana lebih geli.


Baca juga ayat dibawah ini :

II Timotius 3:16 Segala tulisan yang diilhamkan Allah memang bermanfaat untuk mengajar, untuk menyatakan kesalahan, untuk memperbaiki kelakuan dan untuk mendidik orang dalam kebenaran.
lantas...dimana tulisan hanya nya...dimana tulisan sumber kebenaran hanya tulisan...di bagian mana nya om...
btw...udah mulai OOT nih ...sengaja mengalihkan perhatian yah  :D

Quote

Jadi Roh Kudus yang selalu bekerja berdasarkan Firman Tuhan sudah menggerakkan Martin Luther untuk mencetuskan gerakan Reformasi agar gereja kembali kepada habitatnya yaitu kebenaran Alkitab.

Jadi saya menyorot “gerakan mulia” yang dilakukan oleh Martin Luther sudah pasti adalah pimpinan Roh Kudus untuk membawa kembali gereja-Nya agar taat sepenuhnya kepada ajaran Alkitab sebagai fondasi gereja.
Yang mengkritik tindakan oknum Gereja bukan cuman si Luther..ada Ignatius Loyola , ada FX dll...
tetapi yang melawan ajaran iman Gereja memang cuman si luther  :D

Quote

Secara umum teologi reformasi berpegang pada otoritas Alkitab, kedaulatan Allah, keselamatan oleh anugrah melalui Kristus, dan perlunya penginjilan


Adapun jika anda menganggap ada kelemahan pribadi Martin Luther yang hanya manusia biasa adalah lumrah sebagaimana juga Petrus dan para Paus anda.

Silahkan kamu cari Paus yang bilang surat Yakobus adalah surat jerami dan masih ingat kan mengenai kairos yang bilang hanya Luther yang melebih segala doktor dan pujangga Gereja semacam

St AThanasius, St Agustinus, St Thomas, St Polikarpus, St Ignatius dari Antiokhia..

memang benar doktor Gereja dan para bapa Gereja di atas tidak ada yang berani bilang surat Yakobus adalah surat jerami...

Quote

Apakah praktek para Paus sepanjang sejarah seperti :

1.   Perebutan kekuasaan sehingga terjadi Paus rangkap,
2.   Genosida orang orang Kataris,
3.   Pembantaian pada Hari Santo Bartolomeus
4.   Inkwisisi,
5.   Menjual Surat Indulgensi,

….dan banyak lagi kalau harus saya kutip semua didalam Buku Sejarah Gelap Para Paus yang diterbitkan P.T.Gramedia yang notabene milik Katolik sendiri.

Pertanyaan yang sama

Apakah itu juga pimpinan Roh Kudus ???

Mana yang lebih menggelikan,apakah Martin Luther atau para Paus yang katanya infallible itu ???


Shalom
Nah ini juga menggelikan karena kamu tidak bisa membedakan cetakan buku komersial dan penerbit katolik...

Jacob utama sekalipun katolik tapi Perusahaan komersial nya seperti Gramedia atau Kompas tidak pernah hasil redaksinya direkomendasikan oleh Gereja..katolik...

Makanya Gramedia juga mencetak buku2 Islam, Budha, bahkan filsafat2 karl max juga dicetak...

Jadi ini sumber komersial yang kamu bangga2kan...

dan menggelikan yang kedua adalah kamu tidak bisa bedakan tindakan dan ajaran...

kalau tindakan bahkan Petrus pun bisa salah...tapi ajaran nya seperti ketika dia berkhotbah, atau menulis Kitab Suci bisa salah nggak...

Udah back to topic aja deh di perpecahan jemaat...

saya masih terkejut bahwa ternyata buah sola scriptura menurut barnet ada 8000 an denominasi...

Ini ada ayat kitab sucinya nggak  :whistle:
In Omnibus Caritas

Offline Leonardo

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1772
  • Reputation Power:
  • katolik
Re: Yang dimaksud "Perpecahan Jemaat" sampai dimana sih ?
« Reply #432 on: February 07, 2013, 08:38:14 AM »
Silahkan baca sendiri penjelasannya didalam website tsb.


Itukan penjelasan dari mereka maka anda tanyakan dong mereka !

Nah ini ketawan modal copy paste doang ditanya lebih lanjut di luar sumber udah kebingungan  :D

Quote
Makanya anda harus jeli memahami apa itu yang mereka maksudkan dengan denominasi.
buktikan dulu 242 nya ...bisa nggak jangan omong doang dong..buktikan perbedaan doktrin dari 242 nya...katolik A , katolik B perbedaannya adalah 1...2...3...

bisa nggak
sekarang yang menurut barnet 8000 an denom Protestan itu udah bener nggak  :lol:

Quote

Semua Protestan yang lahir dari gerakan Reformasi umumnya adalah memegang teguh prinsip Sola Scriptura.



Saya hanya mengutip tulisan soal jumlah denominasi semata terlepas dari soal perbedaan doktrin.

Protestan walau banyak denominasi umumnya doktrin mereka sama yaitu memegang prinsip “Back to Bible.”

Nah sekarang ngaku udah banyak denom ...bagus udah jujur mengakui bahwa Protestan memang punya banyak denom  :D

Quote
Perbedaan doktrin antara Alkitab dengan Katolik sudah panjang lebar saya utarakan disini tetapi tidak ada satupun bantahan.

Shalom
Perbedaan doktrin buat thread sendiri deh...biar nggak OOT...
Ini ngomongin perpecahan jemaat...

misalnya protestan sebanyak 8000an nah ini menarik..kira2 apa sebabnya mereka hobi buat banyak denom padahal doktrin mereka sola scriptura semua...


apa Kitab Suci menyuruh orang kristen membuat denom sebanyak2nya...

di ayat mana bro  :D
In Omnibus Caritas

Offline solideogloria

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3803
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Protestant
Re: Yang dimaksud "Perpecahan Jemaat" sampai dimana sih ?
« Reply #433 on: February 07, 2013, 08:43:35 AM »
lantas...dimana tulisan hanya nya...dimana tulisan sumber kebenaran hanya tulisan...di bagian mana nya om...
btw...udah mulai OOT nih ...sengaja mengalihkan perhatian yah  :D


Gerakan reformasi itu adalah pimpinan Roh Kudus untuk menyatakan kesalahan ajaran gereja RK sesuai dengan ajaran Alkitab.

Sudah jelas kaitannya ?

Quote
Quote

Jadi Roh Kudus yang selalu bekerja berdasarkan Firman Tuhan sudah menggerakkan Martin Luther untuk mencetuskan gerakan Reformasi agar gereja kembali kepada habitatnya yaitu kebenaran Alkitab.

Jadi saya menyorot “gerakan mulia” yang dilakukan oleh Martin Luther sudah pasti adalah pimpinan Roh Kudus untuk membawa kembali gereja-Nya agar taat sepenuhnya kepada ajaran Alkitab sebagai fondasi gereja.
Yang mengkritik tindakan oknum Gereja bukan cuman si Luther..ada Ignatius Loyola , ada FX dll...
tetapi yang melawan ajaran iman Gereja memang cuman si luther 


Diprakarsai oleh Luther dan sekarang sudah menjadi kepercayaan Protestan diseluruh dunia,karena prinsip kembali kepada ajaran Alkitab seperti gereja mula mula.


Quote
Quote

Secara umum teologi reformasi berpegang pada otoritas Alkitab, kedaulatan Allah, keselamatan oleh anugrah melalui Kristus, dan perlunya penginjilan

Adapun jika anda menganggap ada kelemahan pribadi Martin Luther yang hanya manusia biasa adalah lumrah sebagaimana juga Petrus dan para Paus anda.

Silahkan kamu cari Paus yang bilang surat Yakobus adalah surat jerami dan masih ingat kan mengenai kairos yang bilang hanya Luther yang melebih segala doktor dan pujangga Gereja semacam

St AThanasius, St Agustinus, St Thomas, St Polikarpus, St Ignatius dari Antiokhia..

memang benar doktor Gereja dan para bapa Gereja di atas tidak ada yang berani bilang surat Yakobus adalah surat jerami...
Quote

Apakah praktek para Paus sepanjang sejarah seperti :

1.   Perebutan kekuasaan sehingga terjadi Paus rangkap,
2.   Genosida orang orang Kataris,
3.   Pembantaian pada Hari Santo Bartolomeus
4.   Inkwisisi,
5.   Menjual Surat Indulgensi,

….dan banyak lagi kalau harus saya kutip semua didalam Buku Sejarah Gelap Para Paus yang diterbitkan P.T.Gramedia yang notabene milik Katolik sendiri.

Pertanyaan yang sama

Apakah itu juga pimpinan Roh Kudus ???

Mana yang lebih menggelikan,apakah Martin Luther atau para Paus yang katanya infallible itu ???


Shalom

Nah ini juga menggelikan karena kamu tidak bisa membedakan cetakan buku komersial dan penerbit katolik...

Jacob utama sekalipun katolik tapi Perusahaan komersial nya seperti Gramedia atau Kompas tidak pernah hasil redaksinya direkomendasikan oleh Gereja..katolik...

Makanya Gramedia juga mencetak buku2 Islam, Budha, bahkan filsafat2 karl max juga dicetak...

Jadi ini sumber komersial yang kamu bangga2kan...

dan menggelikan yang kedua adalah kamu tidak bisa bedakan tindakan dan ajaran...

kalau tindakan bahkan Petrus pun bisa salah...tapi ajaran nya seperti ketika dia berkhotbah, atau menulis Kitab Suci bisa salah nggak...

Udah back to topic aja deh di perpecahan jemaat...

saya masih terkejut bahwa ternyata buah sola scriptura menurut barnet ada 8000 an denominasi...

Ini ada ayat kitab sucinya nggak

Anda yang menganggap Martin Luther menggelikan ternyata para Paus anda menurut data sejarah jauh lebih menggelikan bahkan mengerikan .


Shalom

BACK TO BIBLE

Offline Leonardo

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1772
  • Reputation Power:
  • katolik
Re: Yang dimaksud "Perpecahan Jemaat" sampai dimana sih ?
« Reply #434 on: February 07, 2013, 08:53:00 AM »

Gerakan reformasi itu adalah pimpinan Roh Kudus untuk menyatakan kesalahan ajaran gereja RK sesuai dengan ajaran Alkitab.

Sudah jelas kaitannya ?
Tindakan oknum2 itu yang kamu bilang ajaran...tindakan sama oknum beda...

ajarn itu seperti doktrin iman, dogma nah sekarang ada perbedaan ajaran doktrin iman nggak ...dari berbagai macam denom protestan ...

Tanya kenapa   :whistle:

Quote


Diprakarsai oleh Luther dan sekarang sudah menjadi kepercayaan Protestan diseluruh dunia,karena prinsip kembali kepada ajaran Alkitab seperti gereja mula mula.


Gereja mula2 ...gereja siapa tuh ......mana tulisannya... :D

Quote
Anda yang menganggap Martin Luther menggelikan ternyata para Paus anda menurut data sejarah jauh lebih menggelikan bahkan mengerikan .


Shalom
Luther meragukan ajaran Kitab Suci surat yakobus...
di lain pihak dia menjunjug Kitab Suci sola scriptura....

bisa keliatan nggak di mana menggelikannya

beberapa paus bertindak tidak sesuai dengan Kitab Suci tetapi mereka tidak pernah mengajarkan demikian...pada umatnya...

Udah deh kalau kamu tidak tau bedanya tindakan dan ajaran...kamu renung2kan dulu deh ...

sekarang kita ke topicnya...

Perpecahan jemaat...

Sumber protestan mengungkapkan ada 8000 and lebih denom wow bagaimana ini bisa terjadi ...

kira2 apa sebabnya dari satu doktrin menelurkan 8000 an denom lebih...

di mana ayat Kitab Suci yang menyuruh orang kristen membentuk denom sebanyak itu  :D
In Omnibus Caritas