Pertimbangan dalam memilih denom.

[Djo]

kalau perbedaan doktrin iman bisa disebut perpecahan nggak bro Djo   

Imho, disebut perpecahan ketika sebuah ajaran menganggap ajaran yg lain itu SESAT dan PASTI masuk neraka (tidak akan membawa kpd keselamatan).

Kalo cuma masalah jenis musik, usia yg tepat utk dibaptis, metode baptisan, wajib/tidaknya perpuluhan dsb, dsb menurut saya hanya keberagaman saja.

Berbeda halnya ketika kita menyebut Kristen dan Saksi Yehova dalam hal keTUHANan Yesus, ini jelas2 suatu perpecahan.

Salam.

[Leonardo]

Imho, disebut perpecahan ketika sebuah ajaran menganggap ajaran yg lain itu SESAT dan PASTI masuk neraka (tidak akan membawa kpd keselamatan).

Kalo cuma masalah jenis musik, usia yg tepat utk dibaptis, metode baptisan, wajib/tidaknya perpuluhan dsb, dsb menurut saya hanya keberagaman saja.

Berbeda halnya ketika kita menyebut Kristen dan Saksi Yehova dalam hal keTUHANan Yesus, ini jelas2 suatu perpecahan.

Salam.

metode baptisan tidak mempengaruhi kualitas baptisan yah...saya kok pernah dengar katanya kalau belum diselam belum sah dibaptis sehingga harus dibaptis ulang.....benar nggak yah itu bro?

Lalu kalau OSAS dan non OSAS gimana 
atau TULIP dan non TULIP misalnya...

apa kira2 jaman para rasul ada keberagaman ajaran seperti itu yah 

[Gavin Tuturuga]

@Gavin

Sebenarnya saya tidak ingin mencampuri keributan tidak penting ini. Tapi cobalah lebih adil dan jujur dengan referensi yang anda berikan. Menurut referensi di atas kategori 33.000 di atas dibagi demikian:

Jadi menurut link di atas, Katolik Roma (yang tidak sola sriptura) adalah bagian dari perpecahan tersebut, dengan 242 denominasi. Apakah anda setuju dengan referensi di atas? Jika anda tidak setuju sebaiknya anda tidak memakai referensi di atas untuk menyerang pihak lain.

Salam

Kalau di bagian itu di klik ada koq penjelasannya, bahwa KATOLIK HANYA SATU.

From these western and smaller eastern rites the encyclopedia gets 242 "Roman Catholic denominations" (year 2000 numbers). The largest is by far the Latin-rite (commonly called "Roman Catholics" by non-Catholic Christians) with 976 million members of the 994 million total members (or 98% of the total, year 1995 numbers). However, since virtually all of these western and smaller eastern rites are in union with the Pope (I am not sure of some of them), there is actually one Catholic Church, not 242 churches or denominations. Based on the encyclopedia's own definition of "denomination" the editors appear to be separating and counting by country which is how you get to 242 (or 238 countries plus 4) "denominations" of Roman Catholics. The Catholic Church in Canada is not a different "denomination" from the Catholic Church in the U.S., which is not a different Catholic Church from the one in England, etc.

Lihat tanda "quote" yg diberikan ketika menyebut DOMINATION di gereja katolik.
Yang artinya kata denominasi itu kata yang kurang tepat.

[solideogloria]

Bisa dichek koq.


http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm 

 ayatnya please.... ups salah.... ENG GELIS please...

Saya kutip :

These 33,000 are subdivided into "6 major ecclesiastico-cultural mega-blocs", and ordering them by denomination size we have (I am rounding up or down slightly for convenience, using year 2000 figures) :

    Independents (about 22000)
    Protestants (about 9000)
    "Marginals" (about 1600)
    Orthodox (781)
    Roman Catholics (242)
    Anglicans (168)

So the 33,000 number is from the total of these 6 mega-blocs:

22000 + 9000 + 1600 + 781 + 242 + 168 = 33,000+

Tidak ada gereja Protestan yang denominasinya sampai 32.000 itu malah katolik memiliki 242 denominasi ?

Ternyata tuduhanmu hanya palsu belaka karena tidak ngerti bahasa Inggris !

[solideogloria]

metode baptisan tidak mempengaruhi kualitas baptisan yah...saya kok pernah dengar katanya kalau belum diselam belum sah dibaptis sehingga harus dibaptis ulang.....benar nggak yah itu bro?

Lalu kalau OSAS dan non OSAS gimana 
atau TULIP dan non TULIP misalnya...

apa kira2 jaman para rasul ada keberagaman ajaran seperti itu yah 

Baptisan tidak menyelamatkan makanya mau percik atau selam tidak masalah karena itu hanya sebagai simbol ketaatan saja bukan sarana keselamatan.

[solideogloria]

Kalau di bagian itu di klik ada koq penjelasannya, bahwa KATOLIK HANYA SATU.

From these western and smaller eastern rites the encyclopedia gets 242 "Roman Catholic denominations" (year 2000 numbers). The largest is by far the Latin-rite (commonly called "Roman Catholics" by non-Catholic Christians) with 976 million members of the 994 million total members (or 98% of the total, year 1995 numbers). However, since virtually all of these western and smaller eastern rites are in union with the Pope (I am not sure of some of them), there is actually one Catholic Church, not 242 churches or denominations. Based on the encyclopedia's own definition of "denomination" the editors appear to be separating and counting by country which is how you get to 242 (or 238 countries plus 4) "denominations" of Roman Catholics. The Catholic Church in Canada is not a different "denomination" from the Catholic Church in the U.S., which is not a different Catholic Church from the one in England, etc.

Lihat tanda "quote" yg diberikan ketika menyebut DOMINATION di gereja katolik.
Yang artinya kata denominasi itu kata yang kurang tepat.

baca baik baik komentar dibawah ini :

True Sola Scriptura leads to perfect unity! Oral traditions and creeds cause division!

A. Analysis of Table 1-5 to calculate the number of Roman Catholic and Orthodox denominations:

Barrett lists in table 1-5, 25 Orthodox traditions inside the Orthodox church and 22 Roman Catholic traditions inside the Roman Catholic church. Add the 16 Orthodox traditions and 8 Roman Catholic traditions in the "Independent" category, and you of have a grand total of 41 different Orthodox denominations and 30 Roman Catholic denominations.

As you can see, religious division within Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches is about equal with others.

Whereas Traditionalists will claim they are "one" and Protestants are divided into many denominations, we can now see where they got that claim, and why it is so wrong!

    As you will see, the 30,000 to 1 ratio spouted by traditionalists is way off. You will see, there are about as many different types of Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches as there are Protestant! They are equally divided!

    We also note that the majority of the 209 "Independent" traditions are Pentecostal/Charismatic type churches who do not use sola Scriptura to determine doctrine. There are an additional 24 traditions of Roman Catholic and Orthodox within the "independent" category. This means that of the 209 Independent sects listed, 24 are from the traditions of Roman Catholic and Orthodox!

    Final numbers: Barrett's data leads us to conclude that there are 30 Roman Catholic denominations and 41 different Orthodox denominations. This means that the worship, doctrine and liturgy has 30 Roman Catholic variations and 41 Orthodox variations, not to mention the fact that Catholic and Orthodox are divided against themselves. Obviously, oral tradition is not a reliable method of determining truth. Sola Scriptura is the only method that can work.

B. Assessments and comments:

    Roman Catholic's and Orthodox should cast no stones at the religious division of Protestants, since there are between 30-410 Roman Catholic denominations and between 41-1302 Orthodox denominations. (Depending how your count them: see conclusions.)

    "Oral tradition leads to doctrinal anarchy, which is further reason why you need to use sola Scriptura. Look at all of these Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox denominations, no less than 71 of them the last time I checked. How do Catholics and Orthodox know you're in the correct church?" Which of the 71 "oral traditions" is the true one?

    There are over 142 different Roman Catholic and Orthodox denominations. This fact will come as a shock to most Catholics and Orthodox believers. We suggest you write your leaders and tell them to stop using the "division" argument against sola Scriptura because it comes back and bites you!

    This is a case of blind hypocrisy because not only are the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches bitterly divided against themselves, there are also more than 30 different Catholic denominations and 41Orthodox denominations. Both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches made the identical claim that they have the true apostolic church tradition yet they differ so much in doctrine and liturgy, that they are not even "in fellowship" with each other. Obviously then, using tradition creates just as many different doctrines as Protestant churches.

    Roman Catholic and Orthodox tradition defenders are merely highlighting the failure of creedalism, not true sola Scriptura. The reasons these "Sola Scriptura churches" differ in doctrine, is because they truly are not using the Bible alone, but use creeds like traditionalists.

    Many churches that claim to use the Bible alone, in fact do not. So the Roman Catholic and Orthodox observation that "sola Scriptura churches" differ in doctrine is invalid because they are not really "sola Scriptura" churches since they use creeds, councils and statements of faith in addition to the Bible to determine doctrine. We call them pseudo-Sola Scriptura churches.

    "Pseudo-Sola Scriptura" churches that claim such "personal illumination" differ as greatly in their doctrine, as the "Anti-Sola Scriptura" do in regards to their tradition. So Roman Catholic and Orthodox defenders need find another line of reasoning that makes no reference to "guidance from the Holy Spirit to understand the Bible alone". We reject this as a false doctrine, as much as papal infallibility.

    So anti-sola Scriptura churches like Roman Catholic and Orthodox differ with each other for exactly the same reason pseudo-Sola Scriptura churches: They both use human creeds as standards of doctrine.

    Further, these Protestants are protesting the Catholic and Orthodox system. Obviously God did not see fit to give Rome or Constantinople any supremacy, otherwise they would not be protested so much. The fact that there is protest on this kind of universal protest on such a large scale proves something is very wrong. This failure is highlighted by the fact that the Orthodox church rejected the Roman church's claim for world domination. The East (Orthodox) basically told the bishop of Rome, "It has never been this way, why should we start now!"

    Amazing Catholics claim the are the true church and Orthodox is the denomination, and the Orthodox say that they are the true church and the Roman Catholic is the denomination, yet both claim apostolic succession and oral tradition. Both are wrong, only through scripture can you have unity!

Bersambung

[solideogloria]

Kalau di bagian itu di klik ada koq penjelasannya, bahwa KATOLIK HANYA SATU.

From these western and smaller eastern rites the encyclopedia gets 242 "Roman Catholic denominations" (year 2000 numbers). The largest is by far the Latin-rite (commonly called "Roman Catholics" by non-Catholic Christians) with 976 million members of the 994 million total members (or 98% of the total, year 1995 numbers). However, since virtually all of these western and smaller eastern rites are in union with the Pope (I am not sure of some of them), there is actually one Catholic Church, not 242 churches or denominations. Based on the encyclopedia's own definition of "denomination" the editors appear to be separating and counting by country which is how you get to 242 (or 238 countries plus 4) "denominations" of Roman Catholics. The Catholic Church in Canada is not a different "denomination" from the Catholic Church in the U.S., which is not a different Catholic Church from the one in England, etc.

Lihat tanda "quote" yg diberikan ketika menyebut DOMINATION di gereja katolik.
Yang artinya kata denominasi itu kata yang kurang tepat.

Sambungan...

The following table is taken from David B. Barrett's World Christian Encyclopedia: A Comparative Survey of Churches and Religions in the Modern World, 2001, p 14-15.

C.  Table 1-3 Organized Christianity: Global totals in 1995 AD

Note: Denomination is defined in Barrett's book, as an organization within a single country. This means that if the Roman Catholic church is in 234 countries, it would have a at least 234 denominations listed. Conversely, To say the Roman Catholic church has 239 denominations in 234 countries, is a conclusion that seriously misreads the data. On the other hand, the fact that there are 8848 denominations in the Protestant column, does not mean there are 8848 Protestant denominations as Catholics suggest. If you divide 8848 by the 237 countries, you come up with a figure of only actual 37 denominations in 237 countries.

This calculation (8848/237 = 37) is close the real figure because table 1-5, lists 27 distinct Protestant traditions. We have taken the liberty of adding a new "sects" column below which is a more accurate picture of actual denominations.

http://www.bible.ca/sola-scriptura-anti-refuted-division.htm

Sudah terbukti bahwa semua tuduhanmu selama ini hanya kepalsuan belaka !

[Gavin Tuturuga]

Makanya dibaca dulu bae-bae..: 

From these western and smaller eastern rites the encyclopedia gets 242 "Roman Catholic denominations" (year 2000 numbers). The largest is by far the Latin-rite (commonly called "Roman Catholics" by non-Catholic Christians) with 976 million members of the 994 million total members (or 98% of the total, year 1995 numbers). However, since virtually all of these western and smaller eastern rites are in union with the Pope (I am not sure of some of them), there is actually one Catholic Church, not 242 churches or denominations. Based on the encyclopedia's own definition of "denomination" the editors appear to be separating and counting by country which is how you get to 242 (or 238 countries plus 4) "denominations" of Roman Catholics. The Catholic Church in Canada is not a different "denomination" from the Catholic Church in the U.S., which is not a different Catholic Church from the one in England, etc.

[solideogloria]

Makanya dibaca dulu bae-bae..: 

From these western and smaller eastern rites the encyclopedia gets 242 "Roman Catholic denominations" (year 2000 numbers). The largest is by far the Latin-rite (commonly called "Roman Catholics" by non-Catholic Christians) with 976 million members of the 994 million total members (or 98% of the total, year 1995 numbers). However, since virtually all of these western and smaller eastern rites are in union with the Pope (I am not sure of some of them), there is actually one Catholic Church, not 242 churches or denominations. Based on the encyclopedia's own definition of "denomination" the editors appear to be separating and counting by country which is how you get to 242 (or 238 countries plus 4) "denominations" of Roman Catholics. The Catholic Church in Canada is not a different "denomination" from the Catholic Church in the U.S., which is not a different Catholic Church from the one in England, etc.

Jangan menyimpang dong jawabannya !

Yang saya tanyakan mana bukti tuduhanmu yang mengatakan Protestan pecah menjadi 32.000 denominasi itu bung !

yang fokus saja menjawabnya.

[Gavin Tuturuga]

Jangan menyimpang dong jawabannya !

Yang saya tanyakan mana bukti tuduhanmu yang mengatakan Protestan pecah menjadi 32.000 denominasi itu bung !

yang fokus saja menjawabnya.

Dari satu protestant di jaman luther menjadi 32 ribu protestant di jaman sekarang, apa itu bukan PECAH namanya...?

[solideogloria]

Dari satu protestant di jaman luther menjadi 32 ribu protestant di jaman sekarang, apa itu bukan PECAH namanya...?

Mana bukti 32.000 itu bung !

Susah baca yang kamu kutip itu atau blon ?

Sudah baca kutipan saya blon ?

[Djo]

metode baptisan tidak mempengaruhi kualitas baptisan yah...saya kok pernah dengar katanya kalau belum diselam belum sah dibaptis sehingga harus dibaptis ulang.....benar nggak yah itu bro?

Nggak kok bro.
Jangankan sekedar metode baptisan, bahkan baptisannya sendiri tidak berpengaruh kpd keselamatan....

Baptisan kan sbg materai/tanda. Ketika anak saya lahir, maka saya buatkan akta kelahiran buat dia.
Tapi ada/tidaknya akta kelahiran itu tidak mempengaruhi dia anak saya atau bukan. kira2 begitu. 

Lalu kalau OSAS dan non OSAS gimana 
atau TULIP dan non TULIP misalnya...

apa kira2 jaman para rasul ada keberagaman ajaran seperti itu yah 

Yg mengimani OSAS akan memiliki hati yg penuh syukur bahwa dia telah menerima anugerah keselamatan secara pasti.

Yg mengimani non OSAS akan senantiasa mengerjakan keselamatan mereka hari lepas hari dgn takut dan gentar akan Tuhan.

Biarlah terjadi sesuai menurut iman mereka masing2 

apa kira2 jaman para rasul ada keberagaman ajaran seperti itu yah 

Saya kurang tahu jg mengenai hal ini. Tapi adanya golongan2 Paulus. Petrus dkk memang mengindikasikan adanya keberagaman ini. Tapi yg perlu diluruskan bahwa keberagaman ini hendaknya tidak dibuat menjadi perpecahan.
Jadi adanya golongan2 ini fine2 saja, selama golongan2 ini tidak saling menganggap golongan mereka yg paling baik dan benar.

Sejujurnya terkadang saya malah merasa keberagaman ini adlh juga pekerjaan Roh Kudus lho..
tapi ya ini pendapat pribadi saya saja berdasarkan pengalaman mengikut Kristus selama ini....







 

 

[Husada]

Mohon ijin, mau urun pendapat tentang keberagaman. Saya pikir, keberagaman dalam satu Tubuh Kristus, bukan tumbuh menjadi masing-masing individu yang independen satu sama lain. Masing-masing anggota Tubuh Kristus itu harus seperasaan, sepenanggungan. Penderitaan bagi satu anggota, adalah penderitaan anggota lainnya, sukacita bagi satu anggota, adalah suka cita bagi anggota lainnya. Jadi, keberagaman dalam satu Tubuh Kristus yang berterima di pikiran saya adalah keberagaman pelayanan. Misalnya, ada yang mengkhususkan pelayanan pendidikan, ada yang mengkhususkan pada pelayanan kesehatan, ada yang mengkhususkan pelayanan sabda ke pedalaman, dll, dll. Namun kalau keberagaman itu diartikan sebagai masing-masing independen, tetapi mengaku berkepala kepada Jesus Kristus, terasa aneh di pemikiran saya.

Damai, damai, damai.

[solideogloria]

Mohon ijin, mau urun pendapat tentang keberagaman. Saya pikir, keberagaman dalam satu Tubuh Kristus, bukan tumbuh menjadi masing-masing individu yang independen satu sama lain. Masing-masing anggota Tubuh Kristus itu harus seperasaan, sepenanggungan. Penderitaan bagi satu anggota, adalah penderitaan anggota lainnya, sukacita bagi satu anggota, adalah suka cita bagi anggota lainnya. Jadi, keberagaman dalam satu Tubuh Kristus yang berterima di pikiran saya adalah keberagaman pelayanan. Misalnya, ada yang mengkhususkan pelayanan pendidikan, ada yang mengkhususkan pada pelayanan kesehatan, ada yang mengkhususkan pelayanan sabda ke pedalaman, dll, dll. Namun kalau keberagaman itu diartikan sebagai masing-masing independen, tetapi mengaku berkepala kepada Jesus Kristus, terasa aneh di pemikiran saya.

Damai, damai, damai.

Keberagaman adalah sesuatu yang niscaya dan tidak bisa dipungkiri dan konsekwensinya tentu tidak mungkin setiap orang memiliki pola pikir yang sama sebab latar belakang pengalaman,budaya dan pendidikan mereka tidak sama,khususnya mengenai agama.

Tetapi setiap pola pikir atau presaposisi manusia sebagai tubuh Kristus harus diuji oleh  kebenaran Firman Kristus itu sendiri untuk membuktikan bahwa mereka memang tubuh Kristus yang sejati.

I Tesalonika 5:21 Ujilah segala sesuatu dan peganglah yang baik.

Kesatuan tubuh Kristus walaupun anggotanya beragam harus berdiri hanya diatas kebenaran Kristus sendiri yang absolut itu.

Kesatuan didalam kemajemukan yang sempurna adalah diri Allah yang Tritunggal itu sendiri yang walaupun hanya satu Allah tetapi ada tiga pribadi yang berbeda tetapi hanya satu kebenaran yang diajarkan oleh ketiganya.

Dan kebenaran itu selain dirinya Allah adalah Firman Allah yang sudah tertulis didalam Alkitab.

[Husada]

Keberagaman adalah sesuatu yang niscaya dan tidak bisa dipungkiri dan konsekwensinya tentu tidak mungkin setiap orang memiliki pola pikir yang sama sebab latar belakang pengalaman,budaya dan pendidikan mereka tidak sama,khususnya mengenai agama.

Tetapi setiap pola pikir atau presaposisi manusia sebagai tubuh Kristus harus diuji oleh  kebenaran Firman Kristus itu sendiri untuk membuktikan bahwa mereka memang tubuh Kristus yang sejati.

I Tesalonika 5:21 Ujilah segala sesuatu dan peganglah yang baik.

Kesatuan tubuh Kristus walaupun anggotanya beragam harus berdiri hanya diatas kebenaran Kristus sendiri yang absolut itu.

Kesatuan didalam kemajemukan yang sempurna adalah diri Allah yang Tritunggal itu sendiri yang walaupun hanya satu Allah tetapi ada tiga pribadi yang berbeda tetapi hanya satu kebenaran yang diajarkan oleh ketiganya.

Dan kebenaran itu selain dirinya Allah adalah Firman Allah yang sudah tertulis didalam Alkitab.

Damai bagimu soladeogloria.

Kenapa langsung mencolot?

Saya kutip ulang ayat yang engkau kutip I Tesalonika 5:21 Ujilah segala sesuatu dan peganglah yang baik.. Tanya hatimu, sudahkah itu engkau lakukan? Sudahkah engkau renungkan berbagai interaksimu dengan berbagai partisipan trit ini? Sudahkah engkau uji apa yang disampaikan rekan diskusimu? Atau, apakah engkau merasa bahwa pemahamanmu yang paling benar sehingga apa-apa yang disampaikan oleh rekan diskusimu engkau tanggapi sebagai api-api?

Sempatkan merenung Sol.