Author Topic: Lazarus Lukas 19-31  (Read 4649 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline salt

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2507
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: **
Re: Lazarus Lukas 19-31
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2013, 07:31:12 PM »
Saya koq masih lebih percaya pada freewill manusia sepenuhnya ya?
He he he he

Syalom

Offline solideogloria

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3803
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Protestant
Re: Lazarus Lukas 19-31
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2013, 11:32:23 PM »
Mengapa Tuhan menentukan utk melewatkan sso dalam rencana keselamatan?

Karena keselamatan hanya bergantung kepada siapa Tuhan bermurah hati :

Roma 9:16 Jadi hal itu tidak tergantung pada kehendak orang atau usaha orang, tetapi kepada kemurahan hati Allah.

Shalom

BACK TO BIBLE

Offline solideogloria

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3803
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Protestant
Re: Lazarus Lukas 19-31
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2013, 11:35:27 PM »
Saya koq masih lebih percaya pada freewill manusia sepenuhnya ya?
He he he he

Syalom


Tidak ada freewill manusia yang free secara mutlak melainkan dibatasi oleh kodratnya sebagai ciptaan belaka,ibarat ikan didalam aquarium yang free mau berenang kemana dia mau tetapi jangan coba loncat keluar aquarium maka kebebasannya langsung hilang bersama nyawanya.

Shalom

BACK TO BIBLE

Offline solideogloria

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3803
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Protestant
Re: Lazarus Lukas 19-31
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2013, 11:49:57 PM »
Saya percaya predestinasi .... tapi hanya untuk case2 tertentu yang memang dikehendaki Allah.
Selebihnya ... kemaha-kuasaan Allah mengikut-sertakan kehendak bebas manusia

 :)


Kalau berbicara mengenai ANUGERAH keselamatan bila dikaitkan dengan peranan manusia Thomas Aquinas sendiri didalam "Summa Theologia" berkata :

1.Seseorang yg berada dalam sifat dasar yang rusak tidak bisa memenuhi hukum hukum ilahi jika tidak ada anugerah yang memulihkannya.

2.Seseorang tidak bisa mempersiapkan dirinya sendiri untuk mendapatkan anugerah jika tidak ada pertolongan dari anugerah.

3.Manusia tidak bisa bangkit sendiri dari dosa dengan cara apapun juga jika tidak ada pertolongan oleh anugerah.

4.JIka keadaan naturnya masih murni.manusia tidak membutuhkan anugerah untuk mengasihi Allah diatas segalanya,meskipun dia tetap membutuhkan pertolongan Allah untuk menggerakkan dirinya untuk melakukannya. Tetapi dalam keadaan sifat dasar yang sudah rusak,dia membutuhkan pertolongan anugerah,supaya naturnya bisa dipulihkan.

THOMAS AQUINAS PERCAYA BAHWA Allah ADALAH PENGGERAK PERTAMA (THE FIRST MOVER).

Jadi didalam sejarahnya baik Agustinus maupun Thomas Aquinas menolak semua ajaran Pelagian dan Semi Pelagian yang mengajarkan manusia mampu mencari Allah dari dirinya sendiri.

Agustinus dan Thomas Aquinas memiliki prinsip bahwa anugerah Allah senantiasa mendahului respon manusia (GRACE IS PRIOR TO HUMAN RESPOND).

Shalom



« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 11:51:54 PM by solideogloria »
BACK TO BIBLE

Offline salt

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2507
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: **
Re: Lazarus Lukas 19-31
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2013, 07:36:46 AM »

Tidak ada freewill manusia yang free secara mutlak melainkan dibatasi oleh kodratnya sebagai ciptaan belaka,ibarat ikan didalam aquarium yang free mau berenang kemana dia mau tetapi jangan coba loncat keluar aquarium maka kebebasannya langsung hilang bersama nyawanya.

Shalom

Kalau bebas loncat, itu namanya freewill, bro.
Kalau predestinasi itu aquariumnya ditutupi.

Syalom

Offline Phooey

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5491
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Χριστός
Re: Lazarus Lukas 19-31
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2013, 08:08:04 AM »

Kalau berbicara mengenai ANUGERAH keselamatan bila dikaitkan dengan peranan manusia Thomas Aquinas sendiri didalam "Summa Theologia" berkata :

1.Seseorang yg berada dalam sifat dasar yang rusak tidak bisa memenuhi hukum hukum ilahi jika tidak ada anugerah yang memulihkannya.

2.Seseorang tidak bisa mempersiapkan dirinya sendiri untuk mendapatkan anugerah jika tidak ada pertolongan dari anugerah.

3.Manusia tidak bisa bangkit sendiri dari dosa dengan cara apapun juga jika tidak ada pertolongan oleh anugerah.

4.JIka keadaan naturnya masih murni.manusia tidak membutuhkan anugerah untuk mengasihi Allah diatas segalanya,meskipun dia tetap membutuhkan pertolongan Allah untuk menggerakkan dirinya untuk melakukannya. Tetapi dalam keadaan sifat dasar yang sudah rusak,dia membutuhkan pertolongan anugerah,supaya naturnya bisa dipulihkan.

THOMAS AQUINAS PERCAYA BAHWA Allah ADALAH PENGGERAK PERTAMA (THE FIRST MOVER).

Jadi didalam sejarahnya baik Agustinus maupun Thomas Aquinas menolak semua ajaran Pelagian dan Semi Pelagian yang mengajarkan manusia mampu mencari Allah dari dirinya sendiri.

Agustinus dan Thomas Aquinas memiliki prinsip bahwa anugerah Allah senantiasa mendahului respon manusia (GRACE IS PRIOR TO HUMAN RESPOND).

Shalom

Quote

A: Gereja tidak memiliki hanya satu posisi dalam hal predestinasi. Ada beberapa pemikiran yang berbeda untuk pertanyaan ini. Gereja telah menetapkan parameter untuk mencegah orang-orang masuk terlalu jauh pada kedua ujung, dan tetap berada dalam batas-batas yang diperbolehkan untuk menginterpretasikan secara bebas.

Untuk melawan Pelagianisme, Gereja memerlukan parameter untuk menolak preposisi sbb :

Kejatuhan Adam hanyalah sebuah contoh yang menjelaskan bagaimana manusia berdosa, dan tidak menjauhkan manusia dari rahmat dan nature kejatuhan (nature dosa) tidak diteruskan kepada kita semua.
Manusia bisa melawan dosa, dibenarkan, dan memperoleh kehidupan kekal tanpa rahmat Tuhan.
Rahmat karunia Allah diberikan kepada kita hanya secara external, seperti melalui Hukum Mosaic, Pengajaran, dan contoh kehidupan Kristus.
Rahmat karunia diberikan kepada manusia sehingga ia dapat lebih mudah melakukan hal-hal yang seharusnya dilakukan.

Untuk melawan Semi-Pelagianisme, Gereja memerlukan parameter untuk menolak preposisi sbb :

Manusia bisa menginginkan keselamatan tanpa memerlukan rahmat Allah.
Manusia bisa sampai kepada Allah tanpa rahmat Allah.
Manusia tidak memerlukan rahmat Allah untuk bisa bertahan sampai pada akhirnya.

Untuk melawan Calvinisme, Gereja memerlukan parameter untuk menolak preposisi sbb :

Manusia tidak bisa menolak rahmat karunia Allah.
Semua orang yang sudah pernah dibenarkan di-predestinasi-kan akan bertahan dalam pembenaran.
Allah menciptakan manusia hanya untuk kemudian membuang mereka.
Kematian Kristus hanya untuk menebus dosa orang-orang yang telah dipilih.
Apapun yang kita lakukan adalah dosa yang diukur dengan paling tidak beberapa patokan.
Keinginan manusia hanya bebas dari keharusan eksternal tapi tidak dari motif internal.


Di dalam batasan-batasan yang sudah diberikan, Gereja memperbolehkan kebebasan untuk menginterpretasikan.
Batasan ini sudah cukup luas. Contoh, seseorang dapat percaya pada pendapat St. Thomas Aquinas, yang dekat (tapi tidak sama dengan) Calvinisme.


dikutip dari http://luxveritatis7.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/t-bagaimana-posisi-gereja-katolik-dalam-masalah-predestinasi/

Buat bahan bacaan perbandingan saja


 :D
Καὶ μὴ κρίνετε, καὶ οὐ μὴ κριθῆτε· καὶ μὴ καταδικάζετε, καὶ οὐ μὴ καταδικασθῆτε. ἀπολύετε, καὶ ἀπολυθήσεσθε· (Luk 6:37 BGT)

Offline solideogloria

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3803
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Protestant
Re: Lazarus Lukas 19-31
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2013, 09:02:47 AM »
@Phooey,

Saya kutip pula ajaran Agustinus menyangkut kaitan predestinasi - grace - freewill tetapi kalau mau membahas lebih lanjut silahkan di topik yang relevan disebelah bro :

Augustine's Doctrine of the Bondage of the Will

Augustine argued that there are four states, which are derived from the Scripture, that correspond to the four states of man in relation to sin: (a) able to sin, able not to sin (posse peccare, posse non peccare); (b) not able not to sin (non posse non peccare); (c) able not to sin (posse non peccare); and (d) unable to sin (non posse peccare). The first state corresponds to the state of man in innocency, before the Fall; the second the state of the natural man after the Fall; the third the state of the regenerate man; and the fourth the glorified man.

Augustine's description of the person after the fall "not able not to sin (non posse non peccare)" is what it means for humanity to have lost the liberty of the will. Fallen man's will is free from coercion yes, but not free from necessity... ie. he sins of necessity due to a corruption of nature.

With this in mind we better understand the following statements of Augustine:

"Without the Spirit man's will is not free, since it has been laid under by shackling and conquering desires." - Augustine, Letters cxlv 2 (MPL 33. 593; tr FC 20. 163f.)

"When the will was conquered by the vice into which it had fallen, human nature began to lose its freedom." - Augustine, On Man's Perfection in Righteousness iv 9 (MLP 44. 296; tr. NPNF V. 161)

"Through freedom man came to be in sin, but the corruption which followed as punishment turned freedom into necessity." - Augustine On Man's Perfection In Righteousness

"Man, using free will badly, has lost both himself and his will"

"The free will has been so enslaved that is can have no power for righteousness."


"What God's grace has not freed will not be free."

"Nature is common to all, but not grace."

"The justice of God is not fulfilled when the law so commands, and man acts as if by his own strength; but when the Spirit helps, and man's will, not free, but freed by God, obeys."

"Man when he was created received great powers of free will, but lost them by sinning."

"We know that God's grace is not given to all men. To those to whom it is given it is given neither according to the merits of works, nor according to the merits of the will, but by free grace. To those to whom it is not given we know that it is because of God's righteous judgment that it is not given."
Augustine - On Rebuke and Grace

"How have you come? By believing. Fear lest while you are claiming for yourself that you have found the just way, you perish from the just way. I have come, you say, of my own free choice; I have come of my own will. Why are you puffed up? Do you wish to know that this also has been given you? Hear Him calling, 'No one comes to me unless my Father draws him' [John 6:44 p.]." - Augustine, Sermons xxvi. 3, 12, 4, 7 (MPL 28.172, 177, 172f., 174)


BERSAMBUNG


BACK TO BIBLE

Offline solideogloria

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3803
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Protestant
Re: Lazarus Lukas 19-31
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2013, 09:03:55 AM »
sambungan

"Why then, do miserable men either dare to boast of free will before they have been freed, or of their powers, if they have already been freed? And they do not heed the fact that in the term 'free will" freedom seems to be implied. 'Now where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.' [II Cor 3:17]. If therefore, they are slaves of sin, why do they boast of free will? For a man becomes the slave of him who has overcome him. Now if they have been freed, why do they boast as if it had come about through their own effort? Of are they so free as not to wish to be slaves of him who says: 'Without me you can do nothing'" [John 15:5]

"...the human will does not obtain grace by freedom, but obtains freedom by grace; when the feeling of delight has been imparted through. the same grace, the human will is formed to endure; it is strengthened with unconquerable fortitude; controlled by grace, it never will perish, but, if grace forsake it, it will straightway fall; by the Lord's free mercy it is converted to good, and once converted it perseveres in good; the direction of the human will toward good, and after direction its continuation in good, depend solely upon God's will, not upon any merit of man. Thus there is left to man such free will, if we please so to call it, as he elsewhere describes: that except through grace the will can neither be converted to God nor abide in God; and whatever it can do it is able to do only through grace. "

AUGUSTIN CONFESSES THAT HE HAD FORMERLY BEEN IN ERROR CONCERNING THE GRACE OF GOD.
Augustin explains that at some point he changed his view from synergism to divine monergism in salvation. He argues that due to our fallen state, we are not only partly dependent upon Christ for our conversion but totally dependent upon Christ.

"It was not thus that pious and humble teacher thought--I speak of the most blessed Cyprian--when he said "that we must boast in nothing, since nothing is our own." And in order to show the, he appealed to the apostle as a witness, where he said, "For what hast thou that thou hast not received ? And if thou hast received it, why boastest thou as if thou hadst not received it?" And it was chiefly by this testimony that I myself also was convinced when I was in a similar error, thinking that faith whereby we believe on God is not God's gift, but that it is in us from ourselves, and that by it we obtain the gifts of God, whereby we may live temperately and righteously and piously in this world. For I did not think that faith was preceded by God's grace, so that by its means would be given to us what we might profitably ask, except that we could not believe if the proclamation of the truth did not precede; but that we should consent when the gospel was preached to us I thought was our own doing, and came to us from ourselves. And this my error is sufficiently indicated in some small works of mine written before my episcopate. Among these is that which you have mentioned in your letters wherein is an exposition of certain propositions from the Epistle to the Romans. Eventually, when I was retracting all my small works, and was committing that retractation to writing, of which task I had already completed two books before I had taken up your more lengthy letters,--when in the first volume I had reached the retractation of this book, I then spoke thus:--"Also discussing, I say, 'what God could have chosen in him who was as yet unborn, whom He said that the elder should serve; and what in the same elder, equally as yet unborn, He could have rejected; concerning whom, on this account, the prophetic testimony is recorded, although declared long subsequently, "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated,"' I carried out my reasoning to the point of saying: ' God did not therefore choose the works of any one in foreknowledge of what He Himself would give them, but he chose the faith, in the foreknowledge that He would choose that very person whom He foreknew would believe on Him,--to whom He would give the Holy Spirit, so that by doing good works he might obtain eternal life also.' I had not yet very carefully sought, nor had I as yet found, what is the nature of the election of grace, of which the apostle says, ' A remnant are saved according to the election of grace.' Which assuredly is not grace if any merits precede it; lest what is now given, not according to grace, but according to debt, be rather paid to merits than freely given. And what I next subjoined: ' For the same apostle says, "The same God which worketh all in all;" but it was never said, God believeth all in all ;' and then added, ' Therefore what we believe is our own, but what good thing we do is of Him who giveth the Holy Spirit to them that believe: ' I certainly could not have said, had I already known that faith itself also is found among those gifts of God which are given by the same Spirit. Both, therefore, are ours on account of the choice of the will, and yet both are given by the spirit of faith and love, For faith is not alone but as it is written, ' Love with faith, from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ.' And what I said a little after, ' For it is ours to believe and to will, but it is His to give to those who believe and will, the power of doing good works through the Holy Spirit, by whom love is shed abroad in our hearts,'--is true indeed; but by the same rule both are also God's, because God prepares the will; and both are ours too, because they are only brought about with our good wills. And thus what I subsequently said also: '

Bersambung

BACK TO BIBLE

Offline solideogloria

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3803
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Protestant
Re: Lazarus Lukas 19-31
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2013, 09:04:15 AM »
SAMBUNGAN

Because we are not able to Will unless we are called; and when, after our calling, we would will, our willing is not sufficiently nor our running, unless God gives strength to us that run, and leads us whither He calls us;' and thereupon added: ' It is plain, therefore, that it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy, that we do good works'--this is absolutely most true. But I discovered little concerning the calling itself, which is according to God's purpose; for not such is the calling of all that are called, but only of the elect. Therefore what I said a little afterwards: ' For as in those whom God elects it is not works but faith that begins the merit so as to do good works by the gift of God, so in those whom He condemns, unbelief and impiety begin the merit of punishment, so that even by way of punishment itself they do evil works'--I spoke most truly. But that even the merit itself of faith was God's gift, I neither thought of inquiring into, nor did I say. And in another place I say: 'For whom He has mercy upon, He makes to do good works, and whom He hardeneth He leaves to do evil works; but that mercy is bestowed upon the preceding merit of faith, and that hardening is applied to preceding iniquity.' And this indeed is true; but it should further have been asked, whether even the merit of faith does not come from God's mercy,--that is, whether that mercy is manifested in man only because he is a believer, or whether it is also manifested that he may be a believer? For we read in the apostles words: ' I obtained mercy to be a believer.' He does not say, ' Because I was a believer.' Therefore although it is given to the believer, yet it has been given also that he may be a believer. Therefore also, in another place in the same book I most truly said: ' Because, if it is of God's mercy, and not of works, that we are even called that we may believe and it is granted to us who believe to do good works, that mercy must not be grudged to the heathen;'--although I there discoursed less carefully about that calling which is given according to God's purpose." - Augustine, A TREATISE ON THE PREDESTINATION OF THE SAINTS chapter 7 [III.]

Man's original capacities included both the power not to sin and the power to sin ( posse non peccare et posse peccare ). In Adam's original sin, man lost the posse non peccare (the power not to sin) and retained the posse peccare (the power to sin)--which he continues to exercise. In the fulfillment of grace, man will have the posse peccare taken away and receive the highest of all, the power not to be able to sin, non posse peccare . Cf. On Correction and Grace XXXIII.

Augustine's ENCHIRIDION, CHAP. 118.--THE FOUR STAGES OF THE CHRISTAIN'S LIFE, AND THE FOUR CORRESPONDING STAGES OF THE CHURCH'S HISTORY.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/augustinewill.html

Shalom

« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 09:05:48 AM by solideogloria »
BACK TO BIBLE

Offline Phooey

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5491
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Χριστός
Re: Lazarus Lukas 19-31
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2013, 09:19:04 AM »

Bro Soli ... Saya minta ijin Kutipan predestinasi nya saya bawa ke thread Predestinasi

Thanks


 :)
Καὶ μὴ κρίνετε, καὶ οὐ μὴ κριθῆτε· καὶ μὴ καταδικάζετε, καὶ οὐ μὴ καταδικασθῆτε. ἀπολύετε, καὶ ἀπολυθήσεσθε· (Luk 6:37 BGT)

Offline siip

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 1721
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Karismatik
Re: Lazarus Lukas 19-31
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2013, 01:05:51 PM »
Saya koq masih lebih percaya pada freewill manusia sepenuhnya ya?
He he he he

Syalom

Jika bgitu maka akan btabrakan dg ayat-ayat tertentu.

Saya bpendapat bhw free-will (yg memang free, bukan bounded) itu berperan; tp terbatas dan tidak pd semua kasus.
Tetapi siapa yang termasuk orang hidup mempunyai harapan, karena anjing yang hidup lebih baik dari pada singa yang mati (Pkh 9:4)

Offline salt

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2507
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: **
Re: Lazarus Lukas 19-31
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2013, 01:22:30 PM »
Jika bgitu maka akan btabrakan dg ayat-ayat tertentu.

Saya bpendapat bhw free-will (yg memang free, bukan bounded) itu berperan; tp terbatas dan tidak pd semua kasus.

Saya percaya terdapat beda penafsiran saja mengenai ayat ayat yang anda maksudkan, bro, seperti di thread sebelah yang sudah saya reply.

Syalom

Offline siip

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 1721
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Karismatik
Re: Lazarus Lukas 19-31
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2013, 01:24:20 PM »
Memang ada beda tafsir soal predestinasi.
Tp predestinasi itu sndr Alkitabiah.

Sama spt tritunggal itu Alkitabiah walau tidak pernah ditulis plek-plek tritunggal dan beda-beda tafsirannya.
Tetapi siapa yang termasuk orang hidup mempunyai harapan, karena anjing yang hidup lebih baik dari pada singa yang mati (Pkh 9:4)

Offline salt

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2507
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: **
Re: Lazarus Lukas 19-31
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2013, 01:28:29 PM »
Memang ada beda tafsir soal predestinasi.
Tp predestinasi itu sndr Alkitabiah.

Sama spt tritunggal itu Alkitabiah walau tidak pernah ditulis plek-plek tritunggal dan beda-beda tafsirannya.

Nah, mengenai apakah predestinasi itu alkitabiah, justru itulah yang saya gak percaya, bro.

 :D

Offline solideogloria

  • Super Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3803
  • Reputation Power:
  • Denominasi: Protestant
Re: Lazarus Lukas 19-31
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2013, 05:35:08 PM »
Bro Soli ... Saya minta ijin Kutipan predestinasi nya saya bawa ke thread Predestinasi

Thanks


 :)

No problemo asal ditanggapi secara berbobot.

Shalom

BACK TO BIBLE