Author Topic: Anomali "Kerusakan Total"  (Read 13228 times)

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Offline salt

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Re: Anomali "Kerusakan Total"
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2013, 02:08:07 PM »
Iya  ...
Tadi Bro Soli lewat sebentar.

Enggak mampir   :giggle:

Karena tujuannya doktrin mereka itu adalah mempelajari ('kekeliruan') doktrin Katolik, koq. Jadi doktrin sendiri mereka gak kuasai. Aneh juga sih, tapi ya gitu deh.

 :D

Offline Phooey

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Re: Anomali "Kerusakan Total"
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2013, 02:17:44 PM »
Karena tujuannya doktrin mereka itu adalah mempelajari ('kekeliruan') doktrin Katolik, koq. Jadi doktrin sendiri mereka gak kuasai. Aneh juga sih, tapi ya gitu deh.

 :D

Saya masih ada pertanyaan sehubungan anomali "κόσμον".

Tapi biar fokus, sebaiknya kupas tuntas dulu "Rusak Total"


 :D
Καὶ μὴ κρίνετε, καὶ οὐ μὴ κριθῆτε· καὶ μὴ καταδικάζετε, καὶ οὐ μὴ καταδικασθῆτε. ἀπολύετε, καὶ ἀπολυθήσεσθε· (Luk 6:37 BGT)

Offline odading

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Re: Anomali "Kerusakan Total"
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2013, 04:14:24 PM »
Saya masih ada pertanyaan sehubungan anomali "κόσμον".

Tapi biar fokus, sebaiknya kupas tuntas dulu "Rusak Total"


 :D
yang pengkupasnya gak ada nih phooey :D.

Offline Phooey

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Re: Anomali "Kerusakan Total"
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2013, 04:31:09 PM »
yang pengkupasnya gak ada nih phooey :D.

Saya berikan ilustrasi lain mengenai anomali kata :


Oda : Phooey ... pekerjaan yang saya perintahkan apa SUDAH SELESAI ?

Phooey :  SUDAH SELESAI  kog Boss Oda tapi

1. belum dijilid
2. belum ditanda-tangani
3. belum diperiksa
4. belum diberi materai
5. belum discan
6. dll


 :giggle:    :lol:
Καὶ μὴ κρίνετε, καὶ οὐ μὴ κριθῆτε· καὶ μὴ καταδικάζετε, καὶ οὐ μὴ καταδικασθῆτε. ἀπολύετε, καὶ ἀπολυθήσεσθε· (Luk 6:37 BGT)

Offline Phooey

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Re: Anomali "Kerusakan Total"
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2013, 04:45:29 PM »
Saya berikan ilustrasi lain mengenai anomali kata :


Oda : Phooey ... pekerjaan yang saya perintahkan apa SUDAH SELESAI ?

Phooey :  SUDAH SELESAI  kog Boss Oda tapi

1. belum dijilid
2. belum ditanda-tangani
3. belum diperiksa
4. belum diberi materai
5. belum discan
6. dll


 :giggle:    :lol:


Ini yang bukan anomali :


Oda : Phooey ... pekerjaan yang saya perintahkan apa SUDAH SELESAI ?

Phooey :  HAMPIR SELESAI  kog Boss Oda karena

1. belum dijilid
2. belum ditanda-tangani
3. belum diperiksa
4. belum diberi materai
5. belum discan
6. dll


 :whistle:
Καὶ μὴ κρίνετε, καὶ οὐ μὴ κριθῆτε· καὶ μὴ καταδικάζετε, καὶ οὐ μὴ καταδικασθῆτε. ἀπολύετε, καὶ ἀπολυθήσεσθε· (Luk 6:37 BGT)

Offline siip

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Re: Anomali "Kerusakan Total"
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2013, 04:53:15 PM »
Heh?

Bukankah anomali artinya penyimpangan, keganjilan/keanehan dari kondisi normal, atau kondisi mayoritas.
Tetapi siapa yang termasuk orang hidup mempunyai harapan, karena anjing yang hidup lebih baik dari pada singa yang mati (Pkh 9:4)

Offline Phooey

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Re: Anomali "Kerusakan Total"
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2013, 04:56:47 PM »
Heh?

Bukankah anomali artinya penyimpangan, keganjilan/keanehan dari kondisi normal, atau kondisi mayoritas.


Betul ...

 :D

Contoh lain :

Phooey bercakap2 dengan Bro Siip.

Phooey : Mobilku Rusak Total ..... tapi :

.....
......
.......
........
..........  masih bisa jalan walau gak cepat


 :giggle:
Καὶ μὴ κρίνετε, καὶ οὐ μὴ κριθῆτε· καὶ μὴ καταδικάζετε, καὶ οὐ μὴ καταδικασθῆτε. ἀπολύετε, καὶ ἀπολυθήσεσθε· (Luk 6:37 BGT)

Offline siip

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Re: Anomali "Kerusakan Total"
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2013, 05:24:02 PM »
Bukan gitu ah bro...
Anomali itu misalnya :

Di dalam sbuah kantor, 4 org admin dapat tugas yg load-nya sama.
Hitung-hitungannya tugas bisa selesai dalam 3 hari dan ke-3 admin selalu mnyelesaikan dlm 3 hari, tp Phoeey selalu bisa menyerahkan pd hari ke-2.
Maka Phooey adalah anomali dalam tim admin itu.

Misalnya lg saya pernah denger ada suatu tempat di mekah yg mobil disana bisa jalan sendiri bahkan makin cepat saat menanjak walau mesin tidak dhidupkan. Nah, tempat itu adalah anomali krn biasanya mobil akan mundur jika tidak digas, tidak direm pd jalan menanjak.
Tetapi siapa yang termasuk orang hidup mempunyai harapan, karena anjing yang hidup lebih baik dari pada singa yang mati (Pkh 9:4)

Offline odading

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Re: Anomali "Kerusakan Total"
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2013, 05:37:20 PM »
ini sudah selesai ato belon ?
kalo bilang SUDAH selesai - ya gak ada tapi tapi lagi.

ini rusak total ato kagak ?
kalo bilang TOTAL - ya gak ada perbaiki2 lagi ...
tinggal dikasih tukang loak :D

mungkin maksud phooey : belon/nggak jelas, kali yah ?
nggak/belum jelas maksud dari kata total depravity.

Anyway,
saya nangkep kok maksud judul phooey walo mungkin kata "anomali"nya kurang pas .... hehehe :D

:)
salam.

Offline siip

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Re: Anomali "Kerusakan Total"
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2013, 06:08:21 PM »
Saya jg ngerti sih mksdnya Phooey, cuma saya tetep iseng aja biar diskusinya idup
Tetapi siapa yang termasuk orang hidup mempunyai harapan, karena anjing yang hidup lebih baik dari pada singa yang mati (Pkh 9:4)

Offline budi

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Re: Anomali "Kerusakan Total"
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2013, 08:30:33 PM »
Sementara menurut saya :
Tidak ada itu bayi lahir dalam keadaan terkorupsi, sudah berdosa dan absolute ketidak-bisaan (absolute inability) ---> so bunyi konsep TD (ato OS siiih nih ??) itu nggak pas, karena internal bayi ketika lahir tidak cacat atopun tercemar atopun terkorupsi atopun sudah berdosa. Tuhan tidak menciptakan internal seorang manusia ketika lahir seperti itu.

Tapi makanya adalah lebih baik kita tunggu klarifikasi dari para ahli TD.
Karena sementara ini kan cuma kita2 aja yang ngobrol ... baik saya dan phooey bukan ahli TD ... hehehe... :D.

Nanti kalo ada ahli TD disini, baru bisa kita tanyain ... apa sih maksudnya absolute inability - Inborn corruption ? apa sih bedanya ama konsep awal OS ? Dimana sih yang dilencengkan ?

Bro oda, kayaknya TDnya Calvin itu terinspirasi dari OSnya Augustine deh. Saya nemu ini di wikipedia ttg John Calvin:

"The second book [of The Institute] includes several essays on the original sin and the fall of man, which directly refer to Augustine, who developed these doctrines. He [Calvin] often cited the Church Fathers in order to defend the reformed cause against the charge that the reformers were creating new theology....."

sumber:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_calvin#Theology

Cheers

Offline budi

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Re: Anomali "Kerusakan Total"
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2013, 09:04:14 PM »
Saya menemukan ini di The Institutes-nya Calvin. IMO, ini mengungkapkan pemahaman Calvin ttg "total depravity", sekaligus mengungkapkan bahwa ia menjunjung St Augustine sebagai otoritasnya:

"The orthodoxy, therefore, and more especially Augustine, laboured to show, that we are not corrupted by acquired wickedness, but bring an innate corruption from the very womb. It was the greatest impudence to deny this. But no man will wonder at the presumption of the Pelagians and Celestians, who has learned from the writings of that holy man how extreme the effrontery of these heretics was. Surely there is no ambiguity in David’s confession, “I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me,” (Ps. 51:5). His object in the passage is not to throw blame on his parents; but the better to commend the goodness of God towards him, he properly reiterates the confession of impurity from his very birth. As it is clear, that there was no peculiarity in David’s case, it follows that it is only an instance of the common lot of the whole human race. All of us, therefore, descending from an impure seed, come into the world tainted with the contagion of sin. Nay, before we behold the light of the sun we are in God’s sight defiled and polluted. “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one,” says the Book of Job (Job 14:4).

"We thus see that the impurity of parents is transmitted to their children, so that all, without exception, are originally depraved. The commencement of this depravity will not be found until we ascend to the first parent of all as the fountain head. We must, therefore, hold it for certain, that, in regard to human nature, Adam was not merely a progenitor, but, as it were, a root, and that, accordingly, by his corruption, the whole human race was deservedly vitiated. This is plain from the contrast which the Apostle draws between Adam and Christ, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned; even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord,” (Rom. 5:19–21)."

"Thus, too, in the First Epistle to the Corinthians, when Paul would confirm believers in the confident hope of the resurrection, he shows that the life is recovered in Christ which was lost in Adam (1 Cor. 15:22). Having already declared that all died in Adam, he now also openly testifies, that all are imbued with the taint of sin. Condemnation, indeed, could not reach those who are altogether free from blame. But his meaning cannot be made clearer than from the other member of the sentence, in which he shows that the hope of life is restored in Christ. Every one knows that the only mode in which this is done is, when by a wondrous communication Christ transfuses into us the power of his own righteousness, as it is elsewhere said, “The Spirit is life because of righteousness,” (1 Cor. 15:22). Therefore, the only explanation which can be given of the expression, “in Adam all died,” is, that he by sinning not only brought disaster and ruin upon himself, but also plunged our nature into like destruction; and that not only in one fault, in a matter not pertaining to us, but by the corruption into which he himself fell, he infected his whole seed. Paul never could have said that all are “by nature the children of wrath,” (Eph. 2:3), if they had not been cursed from the womb. And it is obvious that the nature there referred to is not nature such as God created, but as vitiated in Adam; for it would have been most incongruous to make God the author of death. Adam, therefore, when he corrupted himself, transmitted the contagion to all his posterity. For a heavenly Judge, even our Saviour himself, declares that all are by birth vicious and depraved, when he says that “that which is born of the flesh is fleshy” (John 3:6), and that therefore the gate of life is closed against all until they have been regenerated. "

"To the understanding of this subject, there is no necessity for an anxious discussion (which in no small degree perplexed the ancient doctors), as to whether the soul of the child comes by transmission from the soul of the parent. That is, whether the soul of the child is derived from the substance of the soul of the parent, seeing it is in the soul that original sin resides. It should be enough for us to know that Adam was made the depository of the endowments which God was pleased to bestow on human nature, and that, therefore, when he lost what he had received, he lost not only for himself but for us all. Why feel any anxiety about the transmission of the soul, when we know that the qualities which Adam lost he received for us not less than for himself, that they were not gifts to a single man, but attributes of the whole human race? There is nothing absurd, therefore, in the view, that when he was divested, his nature was left naked and destitute that he having been defiled by sin, the pollution extends to all his seed. Thus, from a corrupt root corrupt branches proceeding, transmit their corruption to the saplings which spring from them. The children being vitiated in their parent, conveyed the taint to the grandchildren; in other words, corruption commencing in Adam, is, by perpetual descent, conveyed from those preceding to those coming after them. The cause of the contagion is neither in the substance of the flesh nor the soul, but God was pleased to ordain that those gifts which he had bestowed on the first man, that man should lose as well for his descendants as for himself. The Pelagian cavil, as to the improbability of children deriving corruption from pious parents, whereas, they ought rather to be sanctified by their purity, is easily refuted. Children come not by spiritual regeneration but carnal descent. Children descend not from the spiritual generation which the servants of God have of the Holy Spirit, but the carnal generation which they have of Adam. Accordingly, as Augustine says, “Both the condemned unbeliever and the acquitted believer beget offspring not acquitted but condemned, because the nature which begets is corrupt.” Moreover, though godly parents do in some measure contribute to the holiness of their offspring, this is by the blessing of God; a blessing, however, which does not prevent the primary and universal curse of the whole race from previously taking effect. Guilt is from nature, whereas sanctification is from supernatural grace."

source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.iv.ii.html

Dan masih panjang lagi.... (Hmmm ini pertama kali saya baca The Institute. Lumayan juga ini buku...)

Daripada kita diskusi ttg hal-hal masih "ngambang" (dan "menyebalkan" :giggle:), lebih baik kita bahas teks sumbernya langsung. Ya nggak sih?

Cheers
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 09:06:29 PM by budi »

Offline budi

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Re: Anomali "Kerusakan Total"
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2013, 02:58:57 AM »
Di bagian ini dari buku The Institute-nya Calvin terdapat cara Calvin memahami "Sin" dan "the works of flesh" atau "the fruits of sin". Di bagian ini juga terdapat keterangan bahwa Calvin melihat bayi2 berdosa bukan karena mereka telah melakukan pelanggaran, tetapi semata-mata karena sebagai keturunan Adam yg telah berdosa, mereka hanya (akan) jadi mahluk2 penghasil fruits of sin atau "a seed-bed of sin".

Original sin, then, may be defined a hereditary corruption and depravity of our nature, extending to all the parts of the soul, which first makes us obnoxious to the wrath of God, and then produces in us works which in Scripture are termed works of the flesh. This corruption is repeatedly designated by Paul by the term sin145 (Gal. 5:19); while the works which proceed from it, such as adultery, fornication, theft, hatred, murder, revellings, he terms, in the same way, the fruits of sin, though in various passages of Scripture, and even by Paul himself, they are also termed sins. The two things, therefore, are to be distinctly observed—viz. that being thus perverted and corrupted in all the parts of our nature, we are, merely on account of such corruption, deservedly condemned by God, to whom nothing is acceptable but righteousness, innocence, and purity. This is not liability for another’s fault. For when it is said, that the sin of Adam has made us obnoxious to the justice of God, the meaning is not, that we, who are in ourselves innocent and blameless, are bearing his guilt, but that since by his transgression we are all placed under the curse, he is said to have brought us under obligation. Through him, however, not only has punishment been derived, but pollution instilled, for which punishment is justly due. Hence Augustine, though he often terms it another’s sin (that he may more clearly show how it comes to us by descent), at the same time asserts that it is each individual’s own sin.147 And the Apostle most distinctly testifies, that “death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned,” (Rom. 5:12); that is, are involved in original sin, and polluted by its stain. Hence, even infants bringing their condemnation with them from their mother’s womb, suffer not for another’s, but for their own defect. For although they have not yet produced the fruits of their own unrighteousness, they have the seed implanted in them. Nay, their whole nature is, as it were, a seed-bed of sin, and therefore cannot but be odious and abominable to God. ......

..........For our nature is not only utterly devoid of goodness, but so prolific in all kinds of evil, that it can never be idle. Those who term it concupiscence use a word not very inappropriate, provided it were added (this, however, many will by no means concede), that everything which is in man, from the intellect to the will, from the soul even to the flesh, is defiled and pervaded with this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing else than concupiscence.

Saya rasa dari kutipan-kutipan di atas kita sudah bisa menarik kesimpulan ttg bagaimana Calvin memahami kerusakan manusia akibat original sin.

Thread ini ingin membahas bagaimana perbedaan antara total depravity dan absolute depravity, setelah dikatakan bahwa total depravity tidak sama dengan absolute depravity. Saya rasa perlu ada pendefinisian dulu. Dng modal kutipan2 di atas, saya lihat:

Total depravity adalah berkenaan dng "orientasi jiwa/spirit" (tadinya berorientasi pada Allah, sekarang berorientasi pada non-Allah).
Absolute depravity adalah berkenaan dng keseluruhan elemen2 fungsional manusia (fisik, intelektualitas, emosi). Artinya, kalo absolute depravity ini terjadi maka manusia bukan lagi manusia.

Dengan definisi seperti itu, maka memang dapat dikatakan bahwa total depravity tidak berarti absolut depravity.

Gitu kali.....(masih menunggu rekan2 reformed)


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Offline budi

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Re: Anomali "Kerusakan Total"
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2013, 03:13:29 AM »
Dalam bukunya, Calvin sering menyebut Augustine sebagai sumber inspirasinya. Berarti kita bisa lacak juga teks2 Augustine dan melihat bagaimana cara Calvin membaca Augustine. Saya menemukan sumber online teks2 Augustine yg kayaknya dibaca oleh Calvin ketika ia memikirkan hal2 yg berkaitan dengan original sin dan depravity.

Saya belum sempet baca karena belum ada energi dan waktu. Tapi, kalau ada rekan2 yg tertarik untuk mempelajarinya, ini linknya http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105.toc.html --> ini website bagus bangeeet. Kutu buku pasti suka. Sayang cuma ttg kekristenan saja :D


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Offline budi

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Re: Anomali "Kerusakan Total"
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2013, 03:31:42 AM »
Btw, "depravity" kok jadi diterjemahkan dng "kerusakan" ya? IMO, "depravity" lebih tepat diterjemahkan dengan "penyimpangan". (Kerusakan itu "damage" kan?)

deprave (v.)
late 14c., "corrupt, lead astray, pervert," from Old French depraver (14c.) or directly from Latin depravare "distort, disfigure;" figuratively "to pervert, seduce, corrupt," from de- "completely" (see de-) + pravus "crooked."

http://etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=deprave&searchmode=none


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« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 03:36:27 AM by budi »