Author Topic: Kunci Kerajaan Surga  (Read 14362 times)

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Offline salt

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Re: Kunci Kerajaan Surga
« Reply #75 on: August 21, 2014, 10:18:27 AM »
Kok kwalitas diskusimu tidak berbobot melulu mempermalukan group Katolik saja disini !

Menghadapi radio rusak merek superpendeta tongky, untuk apa berbobot? Toh gak kamu mengerti, kamu cuma pakai mulut tanpa pakai mata dan telinga.

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 10:20:02 AM by salt »

Offline solideogloria

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Re: Kunci Kerajaan Surga
« Reply #76 on: August 21, 2014, 12:06:01 PM »
Menghadapi radio rusak merek superpendeta tongky, untuk apa berbobot? Toh gak kamu mengerti, kamu cuma pakai mulut tanpa pakai mata dan telinga.

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Daripada hanya cuap cuap saja nggak ada isinya melainkan hanya makian belaka maka saya sarankan anda bawa semua argumentasi saya kepada Romo anda dan tanyakan mereka bagaimana cara menjawabnya secara berbobot agar pengetahuan anda tidak cetek seperti ini sehingga mempermalukan diri sendiri saja !

Mudah mudah dengan cara ini pengetahuan cetek anda bisa berubah sedikit tidak seperti sekarang jalan ditempat.


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Offline solideogloria

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Re: Kunci Kerajaan Surga
« Reply #77 on: August 21, 2014, 12:06:13 PM »
1 Pet 5 : 1 Aku menasihatkan para penatua di antara kamu, aku sebagai teman penatua dan saksi penderitaan Kristus, yang juga akan mendapat bagian dalam kemuliaan yang akan dinyatakan kelak.

Tidak ada tuh pernyataan Petrus yg mengatakan bahwa dia HANYA penatua?  :grining:
Katanya ga boleh menambahkan/mengurangi isi Alkitab, kalo Petrus mengatakan dia adalah teman penatua, apakah mengatakan Petrus HANYA penatua tidak termasuk menambahkan apa yg tertulis dalam Alkitab?


1 Pet. 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

Baca yang saya bold merah itu bro,jangan pura pura tidak tahulah.


Quote
Quote from: solideogloria on Yesterday at 05:24:40 PM

Keputusan terakhirlah yang diadopsi oleh gereja perdana makanya itulah bukti kepemimpinan Yakobus !

Yakobus yang Adil

Yakobus ini biasa diidentifikasikan sebagai saudara Yesus (lihat Yakobus yang Adil untuk penjelasan lebih lanjut). Dia tidak disebut sebagai rasul dalam Injil-Injil, namun Gereja Ortodoks mengidentifikasikan dia sebagai pemimpin dari ketujuhpuluh orang dalam Lukas 10:1-20. Kelak dalam Kisah Para Rasul dia dikisahkan menjadi pemimpin Gereja Yerusalem, dan dia disebut pula sebagai rasul oleh Paulus dalam Galatia 1:19.

http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keduabelas_Rasul

Selamat!! Anda sudah selangkah lebih maju dalam diskusi ini. 
Anda mau menerima sumber lain dari tradisi Gereja Orthodox bahwa Yakobus adalah seorang rasul juga, sehingga Anda mau terima bahwa Yakobus adalah pemimpin Gereja Yerusalem (sedikit lagi Anda bisa keluar dari falacy sola-scriptura).


Inti dari Sola Scriptura adalah bahwa semua ajaran gereja harus diuji melalui kebenaran Alkitab bukan tradisi bikinan manusia seperti yang gereja anda miliki !

Hali ini adalah ketaatan kepada perintah Tuhan yaitu :

1 Tesalonika 5:21 Ujilah segala sesuatu dan peganglah yang baik.

Apa yang salah dengan hal ini ???

Silahkan anda buktikan !

Yang tidak masuk akal sama sekali adalah kalau tradisi rekayasa gereja anda yang dijadikan alat ukur untuk menguji karena itu hanyalah karangan manusia yang berdosa belaka.

350 AD: Hilary of Poitiers:

1.    "Such is their error, such their pestilent teaching; to support it they borrow the words of Scripture, perverting its meaning and using the ignorance of men as their opportunity of gaining credence for their lies. Yet it is certainly by these same words of God that we must come to understand the things of God." (Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, Book IV, 14)

Comment:

An amazing text that refutes the Roman Catholic and Orthodox apologists claim that the church refuted heresy with "tradition" because they found that arguing scripture with the heretics futile, since the heretics also quoted scripture. Here we see as late as 350 AD, the church realized that the word of God, not tradition, was the source of how to "understand the things of God".


2.But now let us continue our reading of this Scripture, to shew how the consistency of truth is unaffected by these dishonest objections. (Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, Book 5, 9)


Comment:

Contrary to the claims of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches, even after the Nicene creed, the church still used scripture as the primary force against the false doctrine of the Arians!


3."Having therefore held this faith from the beginning, and being resolved to hold it to the end in the sight of God and Christ, we say anathema to every heretical and perverted sect, and if any man teaches contrary to the wholesome and right faith of the Scriptures, saying that there is or was time, or space, or age before the Son was begotten, let him be anathema.

And if any one say that the Son is a formation like one of the things that are formed, or a birth resembling other births, or a creature like the creatures, and not as the divine Scriptures have affirmed in each passage aforesaid, or teaches or proclaims as the Gospel anything else than what we have received: let him be anathema. For all those things which were written in the divine Scriptures by Prophets and by Apostles we believe and follow truly and with fear." (Hilary of Poitiers, On the Councils, or the Faith of the Easterns, 30)

Inilah inti ajaran Sola Scriptura yaitu taat kepada kebenaran yang ada didalam Scriptura.


Bersambung




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Offline solideogloria

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Re: Kunci Kerajaan Surga
« Reply #78 on: August 21, 2014, 12:06:24 PM »
sambungan


Quote
Quote from: solideogloria on Yesterday at 05:24:40 PM

Tidak pernah Petrus disebut sebagai pemimpin gereja didalam Kitab Suci selain hanya rekayasa ajaran GRK menjadikan dia sebagai batu pijakan untuk mengklaim jabatan Paus sebagai kepala Uskup sedunia mewarisi Paus pertama yang disebut sebagai Petrus padahal Petrus sendiri tidak pernah menjadi Paus selama hidupnya.

“Supremasi” berarti Petrus membawahi semua rasul lain seperti Paus mengklaim sebagai kepala dari semua Uskup didunia yang harus tunduk kepadanya,dan ini sama sekali tidak Alkitabiah karena Yesus sendiri memperlakukan semua Rasul secara setara,malah Petrus yang paling sering dikecam oleh Yesus dengan sebutan “Iblis” dan satu satunya Rasul yang munafik kepada Yesus dan Paulus.

Alkitab tidak pernah mengajarkan adanya kepemimpinan Tunggal bagi seluruh gereja tubuh Kristus selain dari Yesus Kristus sendiri yang adalah Kepala Gereja,Gembala Agung dan Batukarang Gereja satu satunya.

Sama seperti kesaksian Gereja Timur yg mengatakan bahwa Yakobus adalah rasul pemimpin Gereja Yerusalem, silakan Anda cari catatan dari Gereja Timur awal, Anda juga akan menemukan kesaksian2 mereka bahwa Petrus dan penerus2nya adalah benar2 pemimpin para rasul. Bisa juga Anda lihat kumpulan kesaksian2 Gereja Timur ttg keutamaan Petrus di tulisanku ini.
Quote from: Jenova on November 22, 2013, 09:23:46 PM
Kalo Anda mau mencari jejak2 dalam Alkitab, silakan dilihat Yoh 21 : 15 – 17 di mana Yesus bersabda kepada Petrus di hadapan rasul2 lainnya, dan menyuruh Petrus (BUKAN rasul2 lainnya) utk menggembalakan domba2Nya. So... sudah jelas bahwa Petrus lah yg menjadi gembala di atas rasul2 lainnya. Dan tentu saja ayat yg termahsyur itu, Mat 16 : 18, bahwa di atas Petrus seorang saja lah (BUKAN kepada rasul2 lainnya) Yesus mendirikan GerejaNya, yang berarti bahwa Petrus adalah yg terutama di atas rasul2 lainnya.


Jabatan gembala dan jabatan gerejawi lainnya itu bersifat plural kalau menurut ajaran Kitab Suci :

Efesus 4:11 Dan Ialah yang memberikan baik rasul-rasul maupun nabi-nabi, baik pemberita-pemberita Injil maupun gembala-gembala dan pengajar-pengajar,

Apa yang berlaku bagi Petrus juga berlaku bagi semua Rasul lainnya dan jabatan gembala digereja gereja kristen.

Dan hanya satu Gembala Agung maupun Kepala Gereja yaitu Yesus Kristus :

Ibrani 13:20 Maka Allah damai sejahtera, yang oleh darah perjanjian yang kekal telah membawa kembali dari antara orang mati Gembala Agung segala domba, yaitu Yesus, Tuhan kita,

1 Petrus 5:4 Maka kamu, apabila Gembala Agung datang, kamu akan menerima mahkota kemuliaan yang tidak dapat layu.


Memanipulasi status Petrus hanya untuk mendukung ambisi menjadikan Paus Tuhan didunia ini dan kepala dari semua gereja didunia hanyalah menunjukkan arogansi yang anti ajaran Kitab Suci.

ORIGEN (A.D. 185—253/254)

And if we too have said like Peter, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by the light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, ‘Thou art Peter,’ etc. For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, and upon every such rock is built every word of the Church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.

But if you suppose that upon the one Peter only the whole church is built by God, what would you say about John the son of thunder or each one of the Apostles?

Shall we otherwise dare to say, that against Peter in particular the gates of Hades shall not prevail, but that they shall prevail against the other Apostles and the perfect? Does not the saying previously made, ‘The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it,’ hold in regard to all and in the case of each of them? And also the saying, ‘Upon this rock I will build My Church?’ Are the keys of the kingdom of heaven given by the Lord to Peter only, and will no other of the blessed receive them? But if this promise, ‘I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven,’ be common to others, how shall not all things previously spoken of, and the things which are subjoined as having been addressed to Peter, be common to them?

‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ If any one says this to Him...he will obtain the things that were spoken according to the letter of the Gospel to that Peter, but, as the spirit of the Gospel teaches to every one who becomes such as that Peter was. For all bear the surname ‘rock’ who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters...And to all such the saying of the Savior might be spoken, ‘Thou art Peter’ etc., down to the words, ‘prevail against it.’ But what is the it? Is it the rock upon which Christ builds the Church, or is it the Church? For the phrase is ambiguous. Or is it as if the rock and the Church were one and the same? This I think to be true; for neither against the rock on which Christ builds His Church, nor against the Church will the gates of Hades prevail. Now, if the gates of Hades prevail against any one, such an one cannot be a rock upon which the Christ builds the Church, nor the Church built by Jesus upon the rock (Allan Menzies, Ante–Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1951), Origen, Commentary on Matthew, Chapters 10-11).

Dengan demikian sesuai dengan ayat Kitab Suci maka hanya Yesus satu satunya Batu Karang gereja.

1 Korintus 10:4 dan mereka semua minum minuman rohani yang sama, sebab mereka minum dari batu karang rohani yang mengikuti mereka, dan batu karang itu ialah Kristus.


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Offline odading

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Re: Kunci Kerajaan Surga
« Reply #79 on: August 21, 2014, 11:24:05 PM »
Bro Oda,
dalam kacamata kami, kami melihat bahwa Petrus memiliki wibawa sebagai pemimpin dari para rasul dalam konsili Yerusalem ini.
Begini Jeno ....
maksud saya di post sblmnya adalah didalam asumsi Yakobus itu secara di pov soli ... dimana Yakobus di pov soli adalah Yakobus yg sodara Yesus, bukan Yakobus anak Alpheus ataupun Yakobus yang anak Zebedeus.

Karena saya sendiri gak hapal, kemarin ini saya nyempetin cross-check apakah ungu masuk dalam 12 Rasul yang tercatat di Matius, dan saya nggak menemukan ungu di daftar ke 12 org tsb ... demikian juga nyempetin nyari2 mengenai ungu, saya nggak menemukan pengangkatan ungu sebagai salah satu dari lingkar 12 Rasul.

So dengan paparan pengertian saya di post sebelumnya, justru ini malah sebenernya nambah "tinggi"-in Petrus, Jeno....  dimana ungu sbg Leader Gereja Yerusalem juga "tunduk" atas apa kata Petrus disaat sidang tsb ---> so, ini ibaratnya Petrus itu Leader dari segala Gereja Leaders :D.

Quote
Bisa jadi juga seperti yg bro Oda katakan, bahwa Yakobus menjadi yg terakhir dalam mengemukakan pendapat, karena sebagai pemimpin Gereja yg menjadi tuan rumah konsili, wajar saja jika Yakobus memberikan kata penutup dan mengkonfirmasi pendapat Petrus.
Kacamata saya wkt nulis post buat Jeno itu, ada secara ungu ... dimana ungu adalah "kepala" dari pihak yg pro-sunat, dimana penggunaan kata "kita" ya mewakili kelompok pro-sunat, bukan mewakili 12 Rasul ataupun Petrus krn jelas2 Petrus ngomongnya "kamu"  ataupun mewakili keseluruhan "gereja".



Namun kalo pada asumsi Yakobus yang anak Alpheus dia ini kan masuk sbg 12 Rasul, ya laen lagi pola pendapat saya :D. Disini saya sependapat dgn quote Jeno :
Quote
Menurut Lexicon Yunani, kata "krino" tidak mutlak berarti mengambil keputusan, melainkan dapat juga berarti: 5a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
.

:)
salam.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 11:26:00 PM by odading »

Offline odading

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Re: Kunci Kerajaan Surga
« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2014, 12:41:52 AM »

Mereka yang diutus karena bukan mereka pemimpinnya melainkan Yakobus !
saya lagi nggak ngomongin tentang kepemimpinan, melainkan kenapa Petrus dan Yohanes yang di utus ?

Ya itu dah .... karena Petrus, Yohanes dan Yakobus dipandang sebagai soko-guru. Dan ini : (17) Kemudian keduanya menumpangkan tangan di atas mereka, lalu mereka menerima Roh Kudus. (18) Ketika Simon melihat, bahwa pemberian Roh Kudus terjadi oleh karena rasul-rasul itu menumpangkan tangannya

karena saat itu possible baru cuma liwat Petrus dan Yohanes aja datang RK.

Quote
Yang mengutus itu adalah pemimpin bukan yang dipimpin.
IMO, nggak juga begitu. Kesepakatan bersama bisa menyebabkan pemimpin yang di utus ataupun yang dianggap "tua".

Quote
Jadi ada tiga Rasul yang terkemuka pada waktu itu yaitu Yakobus,Petrus dan Yohanes dan yang diutus hanya Petrus dan Yohanes saja,sedangkan Yakobus tetap memimpin jemaat di Yerusalem.
Ya... dan jangan lupa - secara di pov soli Yakobus adalah anak Maria, maka Yakobus tidak masuk didalam lingkar 12 Rasul.

Quote
Justru Petrus tidak bisa segera memahami ajaran Paulus bahwa orang percaya didalam Hukum Kristus tidak perlu disunat,makanya Petrus membawa persoalannya kepada sidang Konsili Gereja yg pertama itu.
NOP. Terbalik.

Petrus jelas memahami ajaran Paulus, kalo dia nggak memahami - Petrus tidak akan ngomong sbb : Kalau demikian, mengapa kamu mau mencobai Allah dengan meletakkan pada tengkuk murid-murid itu suatu kuk, yang tidak dapat dipikul, baik oleh nenek moyang kita maupun oleh kita sendiri?

Begimana itu ceritanya Petrus memahami ajaran Paulus ?
Ini jawabnya : Hai saudara-saudara, kamu tahu, bahwa telah sejak semula Allah memilih aku dari antara kamu, supaya dengan perantaraan mulutku bangsa-bangsa lain mendengar berita Injil dan menjadi percaya.

Merah bullshit ?
NOP. Event Kornelius itulah pijakan-nya. Dan Petrus bilang "kamu tahu" ---> versi kalimat tanya yg tidak butuh jawabannya : kamu tau kan tentang pembaptisan Kornelius ?

Quote
Saya percaya ajaran Paulus !
Yang saya tanya, pada kata "KAMU" yang dipake Petrus itu lebih ditujukan ke siapa ? ke golongan yg pro-sunat ? atokah ke yg non pro-sunat, soli ?
Golongan mana yg di pov Petrus sbg golongan yg "mau mencobai Allah dengan meletakkan pada tengkuk murid2 itu suatu kuk" ?

:)
salam.

Offline odading

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Re: Kunci Kerajaan Surga
« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2014, 12:59:56 AM »
Kisah Para Rasul 15:7
Sesudah beberapa waktu lamanya berlangsung pertukaran pikiran mengenai soal itu, berdirilah Petrus dan berkata kepada mereka: "Hai saudara-saudara, kamu tahu, bahwa telah sejak semula Allah memilih aku dari antara kamu, supaya dengan perantaraan mulutku bangsa-bangsa lain mendengar berita Injil dan menjadi percaya.

oopss... ternyata di pos soli berikutnya, soli juga pake ayat ini ... hehehe... :D.

Quote
Menurut pengakuan Petrus sendiri, bahwa dia dipercayakan Tuhan untuk memberitakan injil kepada bangsa lain supaya mereka percaya, inilah jawaban ayat dimana Yesus memberikan kunci kepada Petrus….. bukan untk menjadi pemimpin !
Petrus gak perlu ngaku2 dirinya sebagai pemimpin ... ketika dirinya dianggap sebagai salah satu soku-guru oleh yang lainnya... ya otomatis Petrus ini malah yang jadi "pelayan".

Soli, coba deh soli naroh diri soli ada di jaman tsb.
Naroh diri soli gak tau apa2 mengenai keKatolikan/Paus segala macem, dan juga taroh diri soli tidak tau pula mengenai isi kalimat2 PB. Maka soli bisa "ngliat" bhw Petrus sekalipun nggak ngaku2 sbg pemimpin, Petrus itu yang paling "dituakan" diantara ke 12 Rasul.

Matius mencatat Petrus didalam urutan pertama dari 12 Rasul, padahal Andreas lebih tua drpd Petrus.

:)
salam.

Offline Gavin Tuturuga

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Re: Kunci Kerajaan Surga
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2014, 05:40:22 AM »
Siapapun tahu tradisi menyesatkan dari katolik penyembah berhala itu !

Lha berarti kamu juga pengikut katolik , kan ? lha wong gerejamu berasal dari katolik.
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Offline solideogloria

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Re: Kunci Kerajaan Surga
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2014, 12:26:34 PM »
saya lagi nggak ngomongin tentang kepemimpinan, melainkan kenapa Petrus dan Yohanes yang di utus ?

Ya itu dah .... karena Petrus, Yohanes dan Yakobus dipandang sebagai soko-guru. Dan ini : (17) Kemudian keduanya menumpangkan tangan di atas mereka, lalu mereka menerima Roh Kudus. (18) Ketika Simon melihat, bahwa pemberian Roh Kudus terjadi oleh karena rasul-rasul itu menumpangkan tangannya

karena saat itu possible baru cuma liwat Petrus dan Yohanes aja datang RK.

Karena bukan mereka yang memipin di Yerusalem melainkan Yakobus,makanya Yakobus harus tetap tinggal untuk memimpin jemaat disana.

Quote
Quote
Yang mengutus itu adalah pemimpin bukan yang dipimpin.
IMO, nggak juga begitu. Kesepakatan bersama bisa menyebabkan pemimpin yang di utus ataupun yang dianggap "tua".

Tidak demikia apa yang dikatakan Alkitab !

Quote
Quote
Jadi ada tiga Rasul yang terkemuka pada waktu itu yaitu Yakobus,Petrus dan Yohanes dan yang diutus hanya Petrus dan Yohanes saja,sedangkan Yakobus tetap memimpin jemaat di Yerusalem.
Ya... dan jangan lupa - secara di pov soli Yakobus adalah anak Maria, maka Yakobus tidak masuk didalam lingkar 12 Rasul.

Diluar lingkar tidak berarti tidak boleh menjadi pemimpin jemaat !


Quote
Quote
Justru Petrus tidak bisa segera memahami ajaran Paulus bahwa orang percaya didalam Hukum Kristus tidak perlu disunat,makanya Petrus membawa persoalannya kepada sidang Konsili Gereja yg pertama itu.
NOP. Terbalik.

Petrus jelas memahami ajaran Paulus, kalo dia nggak memahami - Petrus tidak akan ngomong sbb : Kalau demikian, mengapa kamu mau mencobai Allah dengan meletakkan pada tengkuk murid-murid itu suatu kuk, yang tidak dapat dipikul, baik oleh nenek moyang kita maupun oleh kita sendiri?


Kalau dia paham tidak akan dia persoalkan dengan membawanya kedalam sidang konsili Yeriusalem yang dipimpin oleh Yakobus.


Quote
Begimana itu ceritanya Petrus memahami ajaran Paulus ?
Ini jawabnya : Hai saudara-saudara, kamu tahu, bahwa telah sejak semula Allah memilih aku dari antara kamu, supaya dengan perantaraan mulutku bangsa-bangsa lain mendengar berita Injil dan menjadi percaya.

Merah bullshit ?
NOP. Event Kornelius itulah pijakan-nya. Dan Petrus bilang "kamu tahu" ---> versi kalimat tanya yg tidak butuh jawabannya : kamu tau kan tentang pembaptisan Kornelius ?

Quote
Saya percaya ajaran Paulus !
Yang saya tanya, pada kata "KAMU" yang dipake Petrus itu lebih ditujukan ke siapa ? ke golongan yg pro-sunat ? atokah ke yg non pro-sunat, soli ?
Golongan mana yg di pov Petrus sbg golongan yg "mau mencobai Allah dengan meletakkan pada tengkuk murid2 itu suatu kuk" ?

Seperti sudah saya katakan hanya ada 2 golongan disana yaitu Paulus disatu pihak dengan semua Rasul lainnya dipihak lain sebab sebagai Rasul yang baru ternyata Paulus menurut mereka memberikan ajaran baru yaitu meniadakan sunat seperti menurut ajaran PL.


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Offline solideogloria

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Re: Kunci Kerajaan Surga
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2014, 12:28:21 PM »
oopss... ternyata di pos soli berikutnya, soli juga pake ayat ini ... hehehe... :D.


Itulah ayat yang mengindikasikan bahwa Petrus memegang kunci pembuka berita Injil kepada bangsa lain sedangkan yang melanjutkannya adalah Paulus.

Quote
Quote
Menurut pengakuan Petrus sendiri, bahwa dia dipercayakan Tuhan untuk memberitakan injil kepada bangsa lain supaya mereka percaya, inilah jawaban ayat dimana Yesus memberikan kunci kepada Petrus….. bukan untk menjadi pemimpin !
Petrus gak perlu ngaku2 dirinya sebagai pemimpin ... ketika dirinya dianggap sebagai salah satu soku-guru oleh yang lainnya... ya otomatis Petrus ini malah yang jadi "pelayan".

Soli, coba deh soli naroh diri soli ada di jaman tsb.
Naroh diri soli gak tau apa2 mengenai keKatolikan/Paus segala macem, dan juga taroh diri soli tidak tau pula mengenai isi kalimat2 PB. Maka soli bisa "ngliat" bhw Petrus sekalipun nggak ngaku2 sbg pemimpin, Petrus itu yang paling "dituakan" diantara ke 12 Rasul.

Matius mencatat Petrus didalam urutan pertama dari 12 Rasul, padahal Andreas lebih tua drpd Petrus.

Petrus memang salah satu Rasul yang menonjol,tetapi bukan dalam hal yang positif saja juga hal hal yang negatif dia menonjol al :

1.   Menyangkal Yesus sampai 3 kali

2.   Menolak penyaliban Yesus sehingga dipanggil sebagai Iblis

3.   Memotong kuping orang

4.   Ditegur sebagai munafik

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Offline solideogloria

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Re: Kunci Kerajaan Surga
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2014, 12:29:39 PM »
Lha berarti kamu juga pengikut katolik , kan ? lha wong gerejamu berasal dari katolik.

Gerejaku tidak menyembah berhala seperti gerejamu !

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Offline Jenova

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Re: Kunci Kerajaan Surga
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2014, 05:14:57 PM »

1 Pet. 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

Baca yang saya bold merah itu bro,jangan pura pura tidak tahulah.

Tolong baca baik2 pertanyaanku!
Aku tidak mempermasalahkan Petrus berkata:
aku sebagai teman penatua dan saksi penderitaan Kristus   atau (I) who am also an elder

Yang aku permasalahkan adalah Anda mengatakan bahwa Petrus berkata:
aku HANYA sebagai teman penatua dan saksi penderitaan Kristus   atau (I) who am ONLY also an elder

Apakah Anda lihat bedanya???

Inti dari Sola Scriptura adalah bahwa semua ajaran gereja harus diuji melalui kebenaran Alkitab bukan tradisi bikinan manusia seperti yang gereja anda miliki !

Hali ini adalah ketaatan kepada perintah Tuhan yaitu :

1 Tesalonika 5:21 Ujilah segala sesuatu dan peganglah yang baik.

Apa yang salah dengan hal ini ???

Silahkan anda buktikan !

Yang tidak masuk akal sama sekali adalah kalau tradisi rekayasa gereja anda yang dijadikan alat ukur untuk menguji karena itu hanyalah karangan manusia yang berdosa belaka.

350 AD: Hilary of Poitiers:

1.    "Such is their error, such their pestilent teaching; to support it they borrow the words of Scripture, perverting its meaning and using the ignorance of men as their opportunity of gaining credence for their lies. Yet it is certainly by these same words of God that we must come to understand the things of God." (Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, Book IV, 14)

Comment:

An amazing text that refutes the Roman Catholic and Orthodox apologists claim that the church refuted heresy with "tradition" because they found that arguing scripture with the heretics futile, since the heretics also quoted scripture. Here we see as late as 350 AD, the church realized that the word of God, not tradition, was the source of how to "understand the things of God".


2.But now let us continue our reading of this Scripture, to shew how the consistency of truth is unaffected by these dishonest objections. (Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, Book 5, 9)


Comment:

Contrary to the claims of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches, even after the Nicene creed, the church still used scripture as the primary force against the false doctrine of the Arians!


3."Having therefore held this faith from the beginning, and being resolved to hold it to the end in the sight of God and Christ, we say anathema to every heretical and perverted sect, and if any man teaches contrary to the wholesome and right faith of the Scriptures, saying that there is or was time, or space, or age before the Son was begotten, let him be anathema.

And if any one say that the Son is a formation like one of the things that are formed, or a birth resembling other births, or a creature like the creatures, and not as the divine Scriptures have affirmed in each passage aforesaid, or teaches or proclaims as the Gospel anything else than what we have received: let him be anathema. For all those things which were written in the divine Scriptures by Prophets and by Apostles we believe and follow truly and with fear." (Hilary of Poitiers, On the Councils, or the Faith of the Easterns, 30)

Inilah inti ajaran Sola Scriptura yaitu taat kepada kebenaran yang ada didalam Scriptura.


Bersambung

Waduh... OOT lagi... Diskusi tentang Kunci Kerajaan Surga kok larinya ke sola scriptura lagi?
Supaya ga OOT, argumentasi seperti ini sudah aku balas di sini:


Love is not merely a sentiment, it is an act of will.
(Benedict XVI)

Offline Jenova

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Re: Kunci Kerajaan Surga
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2014, 05:16:20 PM »
 
Jabatan gembala dan jabatan gerejawi lainnya itu bersifat plural kalau menurut ajaran Kitab Suci :

Efesus 4:11 Dan Ialah yang memberikan baik rasul-rasul maupun nabi-nabi, baik pemberita-pemberita Injil maupun gembala-gembala dan pengajar-pengajar,

Apa yang berlaku bagi Petrus juga berlaku bagi semua Rasul lainnya dan jabatan gembala digereja gereja kristen.

Dan hanya satu Gembala Agung maupun Kepala Gereja yaitu Yesus Kristus :

Ibrani 13:20 Maka Allah damai sejahtera, yang oleh darah perjanjian yang kekal telah membawa kembali dari antara orang mati Gembala Agung segala domba, yaitu Yesus, Tuhan kita,

1 Petrus 5:4 Maka kamu, apabila Gembala Agung datang, kamu akan menerima mahkota kemuliaan yang tidak dapat layu.

Lho... emangnya kami bilang kalo rasul2 lain dan penerus2nya (uskup2 Gereja Katolik) bukan gembala domba Tuhan?

Memanipulasi status Petrus hanya untuk mendukung ambisi menjadikan Paus Tuhan didunia ini dan kepala dari semua gereja didunia hanyalah menunjukkan arogansi yang anti ajaran Kitab Suci.

ORIGEN (A.D. 185—253/254)

And if we too have said like Peter, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by the light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, ‘Thou art Peter,’ etc. For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, and upon every such rock is built every word of the Church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.

But if you suppose that upon the one Peter only the whole church is built by God, what would you say about John the son of thunder or each one of the Apostles?

Shall we otherwise dare to say, that against Peter in particular the gates of Hades shall not prevail, but that they shall prevail against the other Apostles and the perfect? Does not the saying previously made, ‘The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it,’ hold in regard to all and in the case of each of them? And also the saying, ‘Upon this rock I will build My Church?’ Are the keys of the kingdom of heaven given by the Lord to Peter only, and will no other of the blessed receive them? But if this promise, ‘I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven,’ be common to others, how shall not all things previously spoken of, and the things which are subjoined as having been addressed to Peter, be common to them?

‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ If any one says this to Him...he will obtain the things that were spoken according to the letter of the Gospel to that Peter, but, as the spirit of the Gospel teaches to every one who becomes such as that Peter was. For all bear the surname ‘rock’ who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters...And to all such the saying of the Savior might be spoken, ‘Thou art Peter’ etc., down to the words, ‘prevail against it.’ But what is the it? Is it the rock upon which Christ builds the Church, or is it the Church? For the phrase is ambiguous. Or is it as if the rock and the Church were one and the same? This I think to be true; for neither against the rock on which Christ builds His Church, nor against the Church will the gates of Hades prevail. Now, if the gates of Hades prevail against any one, such an one cannot be a rock upon which the Christ builds the Church, nor the Church built by Jesus upon the rock (Allan Menzies, Ante–Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1951), Origen, Commentary on Matthew, Chapters 10-11).

Dengan demikian sesuai dengan ayat Kitab Suci maka hanya Yesus satu satunya Batu Karang gereja.

1 Korintus 10:4 dan mereka semua minum minuman rohani yang sama, sebab mereka minum dari batu karang rohani yang mengikuti mereka, dan batu karang itu ialah Kristus.

Bagus!! Kali ini Anda memberikan referensi yang valid dan benar, tidak memutilasi maupun menyelewengkan ajaran Origen.  :afro:
Benar bahwa Origen dalam tulisannya ini tidak mendukung kepemimpinan Petrus dan penerus2 Petrus.
TETAPI, tulisan seorang Origen tidak dapat melawan ajaran Gereja.

Pertama, Origen adalah BUKAN seorang penerus rasul. Origen bukanlah seorang uskup, jadi Origen tidak memiliki kuasa untuk menyuruh umat beriman menerima ajarannya, tanpa persetujuan dari seorang gembala penerus rasul (uskup).

Kedua, sekalipun seorang uskup menyatakan ajaran untuk diterima umat dalam wilayah penggembalaannya, ajaran seorang uskup tidak serta merta menjadi ajaran yg infallible jika tidak direstui oleh pemegang kuasa infallibility, yaitu konsili para uskup dalam persatuan dengan Paus Roma. Jadi Origen jelas tidak sedang mengajar secara infallible ketika mengatakan bahwa kedudukan batu karang dipegang oleh semua orang beriman. Lagi pula, Origen pada akhir masa hidupnya terpisah dari Gereja Universal karena mengajarkan ajaran2 yang bertentangan dengan iman Gereja.

Ketiga, dan yang paling penting, ajaran Origen di sini bertentangan dengan ajaran bapa2 Gereja lainnya yang lebih memiliki otoritas dalam mengikat ajaran sebagai penerus rasul. Ada banyak ajaran bapa2 Gereja yang memiliki otoritas sebagai penerus rasul yang mengkonfirmasi keutamaan dan kepemimpinan Petrus dan penerus2nya, juga terlihat dalam konsili2 ekumenis di mana keputusan2 / dekrit2 / kanon2 dalam konsili ekumenis tidak dapat mengikat seluruh umat beriman dalam Gereja Universal jika tidak mendapat restu dan pengesahan dari paus Gereja Roma.

Bisa Anda lihat bukti2nya di sini:
Love is not merely a sentiment, it is an act of will.
(Benedict XVI)

Offline Jenova

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Re: Kunci Kerajaan Surga
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2014, 05:20:38 PM »
@bro soli,
Ini aku berikan lagi kutipan2 bapa2 Gereja yang menganulir ajaran Origen di atas:
(diambil dari tulisan "Thunderman" di http://www.catholicforum.com/forums/printthread.php?t=7832&pp=25&page=1)

"Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him." Clement of Rome, The First Epistle of Clement, 5 (c. A.D. 96).

"I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, 4 (c. A.D. 110).

'You have thus by such an admonition bound together the plantings of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth." Dionysius of Corinth, Epistle to Pope Soter, fragment in Eusebius' Church History, II:25 (c. A.D. 178).

"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:1:1 (c. A.D. 180).

"As Peter had preached the Word publicly at Rome, and declared the Gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had followed him for a long time and remembered his sayings, should write them out." Clement of Alexandria, fragment in Eusebius Church History, VI:14,6 (A.D. 190)

"It is, therefore, recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and that Peter likewise was crucified under Nero. This account of Peter and Paul is substantiated by the fact that their names are preserved in the cemeteries of that place even to the present day. It is confirmed likewise by Caius, a member of the Church, who arose under Zephyrinus, bishop of Rome. He, in a published disputation with Proclus, the leader of the Phrygian heresy, speaks as follows concerning the places where the sacred corpses of the aforesaid apostles are laid: 'But I can show the trophies of the apostles. For if you will go to the Vatican or to the Ostian way, you will find the trophies of those who laid the foundations of this church.'" Gaius, fragment in Eusebius' Church History, 2:25 (A.D. 198).

"[W]hat utterance also the Romans give, so very near (to the apostles), to whom Peter and Paul conjointly bequeathed the gospel even sealed with their own blood." Tertullian, Against Marcion, 4:5 (inter A.D. 207-212).

'We read the lives of the Caesars: At Rome Nero was the first who stained with blood the rising blood. Then is Peter girt by another (an allusion to John 21:18), when he is made fast to the cross." Tertullian, Scorpiace, 15:3 (A.D. 212).

"Peter...at last, having come to Rome, he was crucified head-downwards; for he had requested that he might suffer this way." Origen, Third Commentary on Genesis, (A.D. 232).

"Thus Peter, the first of the Apostles, having been often apprehended, and thrown into prison, and treated with igominy, was last of all crucified at Rome." Peter of Alexandria, The Canonical Epistle, Canon 9 (A.D. 306).

"[W]hich Peter and Paul preached at Rome..." Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, 4:21 (A.D. 310).

"Peter...coming to the city of Rome, by the mighty cooperation of that power which was lying in wait there..." Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, II:14,5 (A.D. 325).

"This man [Simon Magus], after he had been cast out by the Apostles, came to Rome...Peter and Paul, a noble pair, chief rulers of the Church, arrived and set the error right...For Peter was there, who carrieth the keys of heaven..." Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures ,6:14-15 (c. A.D. 350).

"And Peter, who had hid himself for fear of the Jews, and the Apostle Paul who was let down in a basket, and fled, when they were told, 'Ye must bear witness at Rome,' deferred not the journey; yea, rather, they departed rejoicing..." Athanasius, Defence of his Flight, 18 (c. A.D. 357).

"I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by Paul...My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross." Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15 (A.D. 377).

“For if when here he loved men so, that when he [Peter] had the choice of departing and being with Christ, he chose to be here, much more will he there display a warmer affection. I love Rome even for this, although indeed one has other grounds for praising it, both for its greatness, and its antiquity, and its beauty, and its populousness, and for its power, and its wealth, and for its successes in war. But I let all this pass, and esteem it blessed on this account, that both in his lifetime he wrote to them, and loved them so, and talked with them whiles he was with us, and brought his life to a close there.” John Chrysostom, Epistle to the Romans, Homily 32 (c. A.D. 391).

"Which was mere to the interest of the Church at Rome, that it should at its commencement be presided over by some high-born and pompous senator, or by the fisherman Peter, who had none of this world's advantages to attract men to him?" Gregory of Nyssa, To the Church at Nicodemia, Epistle 13 (ante A.D. 394).

"But some people in some countries of the West, and especially in the city, [Rome] not knowing the reason of this indulgence, think that a dispensation from fasting ought certainly not to be allowed On the Sabbath, because they say that on this day the Apostle Peter fasted before his encounter with Simon [Magus]." John Cassian, Institutes, X (ante A.D. 435).

"The whole world, dearly-beloved, does indeed take part in all holy anniversaries [of Peter & Paul], and loyalty to the one Faith demands that whatever is recorded as done for all men's salvation should be everywhere celebrated with common rejoicings. But, besides that reverence which to-day's festival has gained from all the world, it is to be honoured with special and peculiar exultation in our city, that there may be a predominance of gladness on the day of their martyrdom in the place where the chief of the Apostles met their glorious end. For these are the men, through whom the light of Christ's gospel shone on thee, O Rome, and through whom thou, who wast the teacher of error, wast made the disciple of Truth.” Pope Leo the Great (regn. A.D. 440-461), Sermon LXXXII (ante A.D. 461).
"The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth ... But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger." Clement of Rome, Pope, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).

(bersambung ... ... ...)
Love is not merely a sentiment, it is an act of will.
(Benedict XVI)

Offline Jenova

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Re: Kunci Kerajaan Surga
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2014, 05:23:39 PM »
(... ...sambungan)

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Mast High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who farmed all things that are according to the faith and love of Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour; the Church which presides in the place of the region of the Romans, and which is worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of credit, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love..." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, Prologue (A.D. 110).

"There is extant also another epistle written by Dionysius to the Romans, and addressed to Soter, who was bishop at that time. We cannot do better than to subjoin some passages from this epistle…In this same epistle he makes mention also of Clement's epistle to the Corinthians, showing that it had been the custom from the beginning to read it in the church. His words are as follows: To-day we have passed the Lord's holy day, in which we have read your epistle. From it, whenever we read it, we shall always be able to draw advice, as also from the former epistle, which was written to us through Clement.' Dionysius of Corinth, To Pope Soter (A.D. 171).

"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:3:2 (A.D. 180).

"A question of no small importance arose at that time. For the parishes of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Saviour's Passover. It was therefore necessary to end their fast on that day, whatever day of the week it should happen to be. But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world to end it at this time, as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast on no other day than on that of the resurrection of our Saviour...Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicated.” Pope Victor & Easter (c. A.D. 195).

"And he says to him again after the resurrection, 'Feed my sheep.' It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided." Cyprian, The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D. 251-256).

"After such things as these, moreover, they still dare--a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics--to set sail and to bear letters from schismatic and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access." Cyprian, To Cornelius, Epistle 54/59:14 (A.D. 252).

”The reason for your absence was both honorable and imperative, that the schismatic wolves might not rob and plunder by stealth nor the heretical dogs bark madly in the rapid fury nor the very serpent, the devil, discharge his blasphemous venom. So it seems to us right and altogether fitting that priests of the Lord from each and every province should report to their head, that is, to the See of Peter, the Apostle." Council of Sardica, To Pope Julius (A.D. 342).

"And this case likewise is to be provided for, that if in any province a bishop has some matter against his brother and fellow-bishop, neither of the two should call in as arbiters bishops from another province. But if perchance sentence be given against a bishop in any matter and he supposes his case to be not unsound but good, in order that the question may be reopened, let us, if it seem good to your charity, honour the memory of Peter the Apostle, and let those who gave judgment write to Julius, the bishop of Rome, so that, if necessary, the case may be retried by the bishops of the neighbouring provinces and let him appoint arbiters; but if it cannot be shown that his case is of such a sort as to need a new trial, let the judgment once given not be annulled, but stand good as before." Council of Sardica, Canon III (A.D. 343-344).

"Bishop Gaudentius said: If it seems good to you, it is necessary to add to this decision full of sincere charity which thou hast pronounced, that if any bishop be deposed by the sentence of these neighbouring bishops, and assert that he has fresh matter in defense, a new bishop be not settled in his see, unless the bishop of Rome judge and render a decision as to this." Council of Sardica, Canon IV (A.D. 343-344).

"Bishop Hosius said: Decreed, that if any bishop is accused, and the bishops of the same region assemble and depose him from his office, and he appealing, so to speak, takes refuge with the most blessed bishop of the Roman church, and he be willing to give him a hearing, and think it right to renew the examination of his case, let him be pleased to write to those fellow-bishops who are nearest the province that they may examine the particulars with care and accuracy and give their votes on the matter in accordance with the word of truth. And if any one require that his case be heard yet again, and at his request it seem good to move the bishop of Rome to send presbyters a latere, let it be in the power of that bishop, according as he judges it to be good and decides it to be right that some be sent to be judges with the bishops and invested with his authority by whom they were sent.” Council of Sardica, Canon V (A.D. 343-344).

(bersambung... ...)
Love is not merely a sentiment, it is an act of will.
(Benedict XVI)